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You are absolutely correct, Arash, California -SF and LA particurly- enjoy a more sophisticated and openminded music scene than many other places in the US or Europe. In Santa Barbara, the hotel had a flamenco guitar players' gig every day and each always received a warm applause from the eager audience.
You are absolutely correct, Arash, California -SF and LA particurly- enjoy a more sophisticated and openminded music scene than many other places in the US or Europe. In Santa Barbara, the hotel had a flamenco guitar players' gig every day and each always received a warm applause from the eager audience.
yep. my uncles live in the states SF, LA and confirm what you said
No, he called it "Nouveau Flamenco". Because it's French.
Ah, yes. That makes all the difference in the world. Actually I believe he's German so neue Flamenco might have been in order. On second thought that lacks the cachet of French.
How come professional Flamenco Guitarist really don't have the same problems with audience per say the way some of us who play occasionally out and have day jobs?
Because they are professionals and they went through the same crap, They did not just show up one day at Carnegie hall. Like I said, it's the trip until you get to the point where people pay to see you, and even then, as others have pointed out, some will always complain. Problem is I never never be a professional. I doubt the drunk who does not know flamenco will pay $60 for a flamenco show, so one less annoyance in the crowd.
And THEY ARE better than most, and additionally they have chosen this as their profession.
Ah, yes. That makes all the difference in the world. Actually I believe he's German so neue Flamenco might have been in order. On second thought that lacks the cachet of French.
Now that you mention it... France is the country between Germany and Spain. Maybe this makes sense after all!
Sure they are better and get better gigs, no question about that, but one advantage is also the location. There is a vivid flamenco scene there where those guys live, whereas in some places (like where i live or maybe you and others live), its not that good.
Honestly I will say it is more about presentation than the audience per se. The entire world is full of people that can be grabbed by a powerful flamenco performance. A guy shyly sitting in the corner of some room or restaurant playing too quiet with people talking over is probably NOT going to grab and affect the people, even if it is a barefooted PDL. But give him some amplification and put him in your face and people have to take notice. Once you have the right presentation it is up to the player to actually deliver something. I always play as if there are some high level musicians in the crowd, even if it is just rumba. There has to be some energy and power if you want to affect people. Sometimes there is NOBODY receptive in the audience and yes it does seem like a waste, but you can't let it get you down.
Finally, I feel there is a stage in aficionados learning of flamenco guitar where at first they are attracted to rumba, next they freaking hate it and wish it and all people that like it or do it would spontaneously combust....then as one advances to a point of playing a lot you realize there actually IS a time and place for it and if it is done well and with taste it will be respected by even top flamencos and hardcore aficionados. It is what it is no more no less and does not really harm deeper flamenco in anyway IMO. Rumberos that put some effort heart and time into it really can deliver some nice artist music with power, even if those middle stage flamenco students want to boycott it, it still has merit.
Obviously, good presentation skills and confidence would also need to go with some real talents. I watched a pianist once, he had his piano slowly rising up on stage with flashing strobe lights and smoke-machine effects, but being a flashy showman and the use of special effects couldn't compensate for being a crappy musician.
Obviously, good presentation skills and confidence would also need to go with some real talents. I watched a pianist once, he had his piano slowly rising up on stage with flashing strobe lights and smoke-machine effects, but being a flashy showman and the use of special effects couldn't compensate for being a crappy musician.
But that is NOT a good presentation. That is cheesy and everybody understands that...now after all that crap he is then obligated to REALLY deliver some amazing music or get marked as only being cheesy. Esteban Benise Ottmar get this stigma amongst musicians for the same reason....over presenting what they offer musically. It is a failure IMO, and then you have PDL for example with his group that many don't like, yet he retains his place artistically and succeeds as he can still play with taste and musicality and everybody knows it, regardless if they like his presentation or not. Caracol is another example with flamenco singing. He indulged in some cheese but it does not take away from the fact all aficionados recognize his greatness.
I think cheeseball artists have the chance to redeem themselves if they are so inclined, but in most cases it is better that they first present themselves as authentic artists, then later indulge in commercial fun projects.
Sure they are better and get better gigs, no question about that, but one advantage is also the location. There is a vivid flamenco scene there where those guys live, whereas in some places (like where i live or maybe you and others live), its not that good.
Honestly I will say it is more about presentation than the audience per se. The entire world is full of people that can be grabbed by a powerful flamenco performance. A guy shyly sitting in the corner of some room or restaurant playing too quiet with people talking over is probably NOT going to grab and affect the people, even if it is a barefooted PDL. But give him some amplification and put him in your face and people have to take notice. Once you have the right presentation it is up to the player to actually deliver something. I always play as if there are some high level musicians in the crowd, even if it is just rumba. There has to be some energy and power if you want to affect people. Sometimes there is NOBODY receptive in the audience and yes it does seem like a waste, but you can't let it get you down.
Finally, I feel there is a stage in aficionados learning of flamenco guitar where at first they are attracted to rumba, next they freaking hate it and wish it and all people that like it or do it would spontaneously combust....then as one advances to a point of playing a lot you realize there actually IS a time and place for it and if it is done well and with taste it will be respected by even top flamencos and hardcore aficionados. It is what it is no more no less and does not really harm deeper flamenco in anyway IMO. Rumberos that put some effort heart and time into it really can deliver some nice artist music with power, even if those middle stage flamenco students want to boycott it, it still has merit.
Ricardo
good points. The "Entertainer" part is definately a huge factor. You gotto be extroverted, powerful and engaging, gotto make people enthusiastic, grab their attention and try to make them a part of your performance. thats not always easy, specially if some kind of unfavourable behaviour automatically appear whenever you play guitar. i guess it all comes with experience, gigs, gigs, gigs and more gigs ...
Also agree with the Rumba issue. Just rediscovering good old Rumba and actually i enjoy it (again), specially if we play it together. btw, i finished your rumba few months ago. wanted to make a video but then couldn't play and do anything at all for several months. have to practice it again, a bit rusty at the moment, but maybe i will upload something soon. thats the kind of rumba one can play alone, plus nobody can say its easy.
quote:
So the answer to the thread problem is ... Move to California, Dude!!!
Esteban Benise Ottmar get this stigma amongst musicians for the same reason....over presenting what they offer musically. It is a failure IMO, and then you have PDL for example with his group that many don't like, yet he retains his place artistically and succeeds as he can still play with taste and musicality and everybody knows it, regardless if they like his presentation or not. Caracol is another example with flamenco singing. He indulged in some cheese but it does not take away from the fact all aficionados recognize his greatness.
I hope Karma and the Guitar Gods, won't bite me in the ass for what I am about to say...
Esteban, SUCKS, BIG TIME!!!!
He used to work at the Hyatt Gainey Ranch and EVERYTHING is a gimic...
His son glasses and hat were all thought up by the manager.
My teacher (rock) new all the band and recorded some of his stuff...OMG, the guy couldn't even keep correct time...
During a session, his drummer, said, "Esteban, you have to start on the "4" and he replied, "hey, don't tell me what to do, I am the star and I pay you to make me sound good"
I remember I went to see him and he did play CHEESY, Elevator music and man did the crowd suck it up...
I wasn't aware he didn't know how to play flamenco guitar at the time! During his break, someone called him over to our table him over to talk to me as they new I loved guitar.
He acted like he was a Guitar God, and he said to me, "ya wanna talk to me" and I said sure, so you play flamenco and he said, yes, I played a lot of Juerga's in Spain. What would you like to hear"...
I replied, what would you like to play, and he said, well, I tell you what I will play something off my CD, a song called "Fernando".
I almost choked on my beer and said, innocently, OMG, you mean the ABBA song, and he replied with a smile, YES...
I said, Esteban, that's not flamenco, I wanna hear some Buleria...
He was taken back and said, "why you know your flamenco" and I said not great, but, I know Fernando is no flamenco..
I hope Karma and the Guitar Gods, won't bite me in the ass for what I am about to say...
Esteban, SUCKS, BIG TIME!!!!
He used to work at the Hyatt Gainey Ranch and EVERYTHING is a gimic...
His son glasses and hat were all thought up by the manager.
My teacher (rock) new all the band and recorded some of his stuff...OMG, the guy couldn't even keep correct time...
During a session, his drummer, said, "Esteban, you have to start on the "4" and he replied, "hey, don't tell me what to do, I am the star and I pay you to make me sound good"
I remember I went to see him and he did play CHEESY, Elevator music and man did the crowd suck it up...
I wasn't aware he didn't know how to play flamenco guitar at the time! During his break, someone called him over to our table him over to talk to me as they new I loved guitar.
He acted like he was a Guitar God, and he said to me, "ya wanna talk to me" and I said sure, so you play flamenco and he said, yes, I played a lot of Juerga's in Spain. What would you like to hear"...
I replied, what would you like to play, and he said, well, I tell you what I will play something off my CD, a song called "Fernando".
I almost choked on my beer and said, innocently, OMG, you mean the ABBA song, and he replied with a smile, YES...
I said, Esteban, that's not flamenco, I wanna hear some Buleria...
He was taken back and said, "why you know your flamenco" and I said not great, but, I know Fernando is no flamenco..
Man I can relate to your experience for sure. I have been gigging for over 4 years now and some of the things that I and our group have encountered during shows is crazy. People coming up to us asking for requests for certain songs, asking if we want drinks and all during the performance!! When I first started out I had these grandiose thoughts about how people would be impressed at my dedication to flamenco and at how much I loved playing this style of music. Wow, was I mistaken. Like others have said, most people don't know crap about flamenco other than what they think they know, Esteban, GK etc...
What we have done is taken it upon our selves to not only entertain but inform our audience about flamenco and why its important to us. This is dependent on the type of gig we are doing. Of course we also incorporate rumba's and other non-flamenco but spanish sounding pieces in our shows. Were lucky that our singer is quite talented and has a solid background in latin styles so that gives us an edge up.
I think Ricardo said that presentation is the key to a powerful performance. I totally agree, its really about being an entertainer as much as a great flamenco artist. Perception is reality for most of us and if it looks, sounds and feels like "flamenco" to the audience then they will have a good time. Just look at American Idol, yes there are some great vocalists but its really about putting on a show.
I don't think you need to be the best guitarist or dancer or singer but you do need to be able to entertain and communicate your message to the audience.
Well, of course you have to take the location into consideration as was mentioned.
I have some friends that play some ranchera and rumba that I jam with and I'd like to gig with after I get a better guitar. There are a lot of Mexicans here so it makes sense, because they love it and they seem to like rumba too. I've already adapted a couple of well known Latin American ballads to rumba and would like to do the same thing adapting to tangos when I get some time (although it might not work)
I'm not a professional, its just a hobby, but even so I'd like to play in front of audience again (haven't sine in my early 20's with goth/punk) and I'd like to play things they'd like, but interject a flamenco influence. Of course, if you live in an Anglo or German area that's harder to do
The route for the more serious is teaching and playing with dancers at Spanish tapas places, maybe cultural venues, stuff like that..thats the only route in North America that I can see for a professional flamenc player
It was a fun thread, I hope more people talk about how they gig or intend to gig. Finding appropriate venues for flamenco is difficult, so I'm curious what other people do and if they gig with other people etc
The route for the more serious is teaching and playing with dancers at Spanish tapas places, maybe cultural venues, stuff like that..thats the only route in North America that I can see for a professional flamenc player
I was reading through old threads last night read this from Mark2. I can associate with this, I think it is a right on comment.
quote:
Interesting topic. My first teacher taught me and others how to do concerts for non aficianados in particular. He was extremely successful at it. I also had a lessor level of success at it. You have to provide the verbal explanations, and you need to be entertaining while doing it. You also have to select/arrange music that they have a chance to relate to, and include at least some music they might know. A bulerias without a verbal intro will probably not work. My teacher told me the verbal was as important as the music. I was pretty happy doing this for a number of years. Made some pretty good money, played some very cool gigs.
But then I got serious about learning to play for dance. I studied more modern playing. I kinda let my solo chops slide. But I learned how to follow really syncopated dance steps, and many of the little tricks one needs to play for dance. Learned some really tricky falsetas and syncopated compas stuff. Became more interested in how to play for singing. At a certain point, I'd was playing stuff in a class that in some cases only the teacher could hear and apreciate. All good, I'd made a lot of progress toward what actual flamenco players were doing and knowing. I realized a dream by playing gigs with singers and dancers. But, I had reduced the size of potential admirers, fans, clients, gigs to almost none. I was playing for aficianados and dancers. Trouble is , there aren't that many of them.
Which brings up the question: Save for personal enjoyment, is there any point in playing flamenco guitar in a place where there is no cultural context? I mean, in my town, which is a fairly major US city, there is a pretty small community of people to play for. Even less opportunity to earn money. I couldn't go back to the "friendly flamenco" gig. I felt I had already taken that gig as far as I could and had no desire to resurrect Malaguena by Lecuona, etc. I spent some time doing background music gigs playing sig, bulerias, etc, but realized I was really not doing the best job for the audience. I don't play flamenco much anymore, just for personal enjoyment, which, since I don't play that much, doesn't give me much enjoyment. I've talked to other players in my area who have expressed that serious pursuit of flamenco is ultimately a dead end for people outside Spain. I tend to agree. Comments?
You have to work really hard to create a situation that you like! Rent a theater, hire a good singer, and rehearse with them and you have an ideal situation. But these days you do everything on the fly and it comes out lousy, the artists are annoyed with each other, people talk, and no one understands. You have to remember why you do this. Every profession is full of this. Do you like pop neuvo flamenco? If do, you will do great, but if not, you have to take what you can get. At least you are living your dream and making a go at it!