RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR

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Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

The fish place is http://pappadeaux.com/location/?id=24

And Anders, the drinks were iced tea and lemonade, plus one beer for Manuel.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 28 2014 2:12:59

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Thanks. I just sometimes wonder what people drink when on a restaurant or a bar.

I normally drive, so I dont drink and I´m not into softdrinks like coca cola and no alcohol beer is not my taste.
Lemonade is good and that what I drink the most when playing Trad. sessions in Ireland. Iced Tea, can be really good if homemade. But the commercial products which are full of sugar and other weird things I strongly dislike.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 28 2014 7:15:26

Tom Blackshear

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Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Here are some more pics.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (4)

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2014 18:25:52

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Here is a young man who is a mutual friend of a friend of mine He visited my home last Monday and played the new Manuel Adalid flamenco guitar that Manuel made for me and I fine tuned.

Daniel bought it and took it back to Houston with him. He will probably demo it on You Tube later on when he gets used to its articulation and tonal characteristics.

Right now he is playing an electrical cut-a-way on You Tube.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 5 2014 3:05:44

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Very nice! Very precise technique. His hands look built for picado.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 5 2014 4:25:00

estebanana

Posts: 9359
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Lenny, catch that arpeggio stuff beginning at 2:49 to about 3:04 ish. That is the stuff...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 5 2014 5:21:08

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Yeah, suuuper clean double arps!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 5 2014 6:14:57

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Leñador)

My wife is taking some video pictures on her I-pod but we are not knowledgeable about how to load them on this thread yet. I'm going through a step by step presentation of the tone and its changes as I finish the construction phase.

If anyone has an answer, I would appreciate how to do this.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 9 2014 20:01:26

Ricardo

Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

My wife is taking some video pictures on her I-pod but we are not knowledgeable about how to load them on this thread yet. I'm going through a step by step presentation of the tone and its changes as I finish the construction phase.

If anyone has an answer, I would appreciate how to do this.

youtube

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 10 2014 22:12:20

estebanana

Posts: 9359
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

What Riconde' means is sign up for a You tube channel. Go to You tube and follow the easy directions to make your ow you tube channel.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 11 2014 1:19:54

Tom Blackshear

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Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to estebanana)

Thanks Stephen, here is the first step of stringing up the guitar with no frets and unfinished fingerboard and neck. This is a step by step work of building a tonal response.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 11 2014 3:38:35

Tom Blackshear

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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

here's step #2 on the tone with a partially finished neck:

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 11 2014 4:00:45

estebanana

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Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

So you are carving the neck with an ear towards the voice? And working the mass and distribution of it in the neck wood. I get it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 11 2014 4:35:06

Tom Blackshear

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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

So you are carving the neck with an ear towards the voice? And working the mass and distribution of it in the neck wood. I get it.

Yes, you are correct, and I'll continue to do this until the neck is right for the tone, or as right as its going to be before I install the frets in the fingerboard.

I'm not saying that this is the only way but my way of doing things that I have gleaned in the 53 years of my learning experience.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 11 2014 11:58:22

Tom Blackshear

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 11 2014 16:37:50

Tom Blackshear

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Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Ricardo)

Here is step #3 with sanding the neck to near complete finish, and then the frets will be installed after adjusting the fingerboard's action. The frets will change the tone some, so there is more fine tuning to do.

Those of you who would like to follow this process are welcome to view it here or at

"Tom Blackshear guitar builder channel." on You Tube........

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 11 2014 17:07:18

Ricardo

Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

Here is step #3 with sanding the neck to near complete finish, and then the frets will be installed after adjusting the fingerboard's action. The frets will change the tone some, so there is more fine tuning to do.

Those of you who would like to follow this process are welcome to view it here or at

"Tom Blackshear guitar builder channel." on You Tube........

I can't tell from just open string strumming....what are the general tonal results from a thicker neck vs a thinner neck?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 12 2014 12:07:02

Tom Blackshear

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Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Ricardo)

My experience has been that a thicker neck will promote a higher frequency or be more stiff in its tone; also it can create uneven tone compared to the top's design. This is one reason I adjust the neck first, before I adjust any fan braces.

Note: You should be able to hear a difference in tone from the # 1 step to the #3 step. The tone should be more open in # 3.

I want to get the right frequency or flexibility and evenness in tone before I do any other adjusting. I use a tapered neck to create more vibration; thinner at the nut and a little thicker toward the heel.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 12 2014 13:39:12

tri7/5

Posts: 570
Joined: May 5 2012

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

The whole "tone filtering" in regards to neck shape/woods bolt on vs. neck thru etc. is always debated in the electric world but haven't heard it discussed much in the classical/flamenco realm. Interesting to hear.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 12 2014 20:42:24

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to tri7/5)

quote:

The whole "tone filtering" in regards to neck shape/woods bolt on vs. neck thru etc. is always debated in the electric world but haven't heard it discussed much in the classical/flamenco realm. Interesting to hear.

Definitely notice differences depending upon the density of wood in an electric guitar. Different body shapes, types of wood, pickups and the electronics introduce a heap of variables.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2014 9:13:04

Tom Blackshear

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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to tri7/5)

I haven't studied electric guitar building. It's been all nylon acoustic; basically flamenco and classical, and this has come from actually building guitars and growing to notice these differences over a period of time rather than book learning.

There are some decent science books on tone production but this builder can't understand them. I come from times when no books in English were available to explain most of this phenomena.

But for some reason tone has been the most important facet of my building career, otherwise I have no real desire just to build guitars as a guitar maker; more like as a player who has a need for better tone in a guitar.

This still seems to be my interest even though, currently, I can't play worth a darn, except for thumb work and ligado, which could possibly fool someone who doesn't play :-)

I'm currently working on the fingerboard to install the frets, and once the frets are installed, it's back to playing the guitar in and seeing what direction I go for more fine tuning.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2014 10:18:20

Ruphus

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Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Even just on a basic level of consideration it appears plausible already that any give or take of mass on a resonating structure should matter.

Denying that would be like your average electrician who will not understand the special measures taken to provide reliable and clean current for sensible operations like in audio studios. That while an amateur could already understand how easily current can be spoiled or earthing rendered useless without special and intelligent prevention during layout of studio circuits.

I know, this wasn´t the best example. The more as it is more challenging than the understanding of mass relevance to resonating structures. But it came to mind spontaneously ( as once I was surprised to see that common education for electricians will not suffice / not cover the demands for adequate studio layout).
-

Having said that, I would like to express my respect for some of you guys in the US who manage to parallel and even surpass colleagues that have passed regular and thorough education in the corresponding subject. ( Like German luthiers*, or probably many others in central Europe. - * Say, that educated bonehead who almost blow-dried my vintage guitar to death.)

Be it you, fellows, who are participating here with their very remarkable guitar shops, or the bunch of people who are manufacturing finest of recording gear.
- Admittedly, many of them learned their trade in the US Army, but I think it must have taken their passion and deep understanding of the general matter in the first place to advance into the special realms like of high end audio gear.

... Guess that was a plea for nation-wide talent supports from early on.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2014 12:29:58

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

Even just on a basic level of consideration it appears plausible already that any give or take of mass on a resonating structure should matter.

This is true as I've found with the harmonic bars going across the top on either end of the sound-hole.

The bar with no relief on its end gives the guitar a stiffer feel, almost like a Barbero. When I follow the regular design with a scallop on each end, it gives the sound a sweeter edge in the treble.

I'll try and record the guitar tonight to show the stiffness in sound, but nothing has been done to fine-tune the voice yet. This won't completely happen until the guitar is finished with shellac and a tap plate is installed.

But I'll keep showing the interim as I go.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2014 15:10:44

estebanana

Posts: 9359
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Escribano)

quote:

quote:

The whole "tone filtering" in regards to neck shape/woods bolt on vs. neck thru etc. is always debated in the electric world but haven't heard it discussed much in the classical/flamenco realm. Interesting to hear.

Definitely notice differences depending upon the density of wood in an electric guitar. Different body shapes, types of wood, pickups and the electronics introduce a heap of variables.

There's an art to putting together good electric guitars because all the factors and parts do add up and the maker has to understand how each component and structure effects sound.

The electric guitar is much more than bread board with strings...

And there are makers besides Tom who have made studies on how the neck mass effects the way the classical/flamenco guitar works. Although it is difficult to reach a point where this makes sense, you have to actually carve several necks and feel them before an after to get a feel for it. And even Cedro used for the neck can have slight density-mass and strength differences that make it hard come out with same result over and over unless you have the luxury of selecting wood with the same strength -density properties. I don't have that luxury.

Most cedro is similar, you ca get very light pieces but they are often prone to nail marking and too soft. Or hard pieces and they can be more dense. Save them for anther kind of guitar. But the "Goldilocks Cedro" can be just right, but you have to build a while before you start to feel it. Or you can test it mathematically for density.

In the end however you have to cut the neck down to the dimensions the customer wants, usually customers in ordering special are more concerned with neck shape in regards to profile. And many players today don't like thick necks.

Just curious Tom, what are the dimensions you find yourself cutting to at the first and 9th fret when you hit the tone zone you're looking for? Do you find it consistent or does it vary much from piece to piece of wood? Have you gotten to a point where you preselect the neck stock for certain properties?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2014 23:47:26

Tom Blackshear

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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

Just curious Tom, what are the dimensions you find yourself cutting to at the first and 9th fret when you hit the tone zone you're looking for? Do you find it consistent or does it vary much from piece to piece of wood? Have you gotten to a point where you preselect the neck stock for certain properties?

Stephen, I try and work with necks similar to the current Conde on thickness and contour. The basic sizing is so slight for the tone that there is not much to get in the way of player preference.

The rest of your question is good but I don't worry so much about that.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 15 2014 0:56:16

Tom Blackshear

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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Here is the guitar with frets, how it effects tone. The tap plate is temporary.

The guitar is going to need a lot of work due to the stiffer harmonic bars at the sound hole.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 15 2014 1:09:38

Tom Blackshear

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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Here is little more in the key of A........

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 15 2014 1:12:32

Tom Blackshear

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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

The string action has been lowered to a little over 2 mm on the 6th string at the 12th fret. It still doesn't buzz; a little rajo against the frets but no real buzzing of the strings. I may just leave this stiffness in the top when I finish it off with French polish.

I'll have to see when the polish is applied, and the tap plate is glued on.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 16 2014 0:47:27

Tom Blackshear

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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

This latest video is with 2mm high action at the 12th fret and I have adjusted some of the braces, #2 and 3 treble strings and then adjusted the outside bass on its height toward the bottom a little to cut out a slight bass drop off into the box.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 16 2014 23:54:09

Tom Blackshear

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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

I'm going to let the guitar rest a little in its current status of being nearly finished with its set-up although I think that the strings could go lower than 2 mm at the 12th fret. It seems they could almost rest on top of the frets the guitar is so stiff.

The top wood is a little stiffer than I normally build with but I feel that a little playing will bring out the sound since the top is already about 2 mm thick, and the proper G-F# tuning is correct.

But right now, the strings don't bounce or snap when played; more like a steel strung guitar. There seems to be a loss of some lyrical treble end but not so much that it detracts from an over-all feel, except that rasgeados don't respond very well to a light technique. So there is more tuning going to be necessary for this puppy.

I'll start a French polish on it before too long and then we'll see the outcome with a finish and tap plate installed.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 17 2014 10:21:26