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RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to aeolus)
quote:
!921.actually. Seems plausible to me and correlates with Bowles' experience. and there were other sources too. So you think primitive African tribes do not exhibit skill at rhythm.
No... I happen to be quite fond of African music, both modern and tribal. I would not, however, contrive to define their rhythmic traditions as "primitive". Their use of compound rhythms and polyrhythms is highly advanced, and elements of their musical culture permeate western music.
In the article (yes 1921, my bad) you referenced, Mr. Boodin makes the assertion that Western rhythmic sense was constrained by the higher cortical areas, strained by the load of processing modern language and culture, had suppressed "primitive" perceptions of rhythm.
While the point can be made that the brain responds to and processes rhythm at a very basic, "primitive" functional level, cognitive perception of rhythm (being able to discriminate and describe differences in rhythmic patterns) is a function that involves multiple regions of the cortex corresponding to hearing, language, speech, and pattern recognition. The ability to relate to more complex rhythms, then, is a learned function, relating to exposure to cultural norms of rhythm and music from an early age.
If you step into this century, recent research on this issue has noted that Turkish citizens (who have adapted to many comforts of civilization since 1921) are able to detect alterations in complex rhythmic patterns better than Americans. Since the subjects in questions are no longer burdened by rampant illiteracy, we can make the assumption, as the investigators in this paper (http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/xhp/38/3/543/ that their enhanced perception of complex rhythms is tied to the type of music that they were exposed to since infancy.
For more up-to-date research on topic such as this, search within pubmed.gov (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed There are literally thousands of papers to comb through regarding musical cognition.
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to aeolus)
quote:
ORIGINAL: aeolus
In this day and age we work at great distances apart and it should be possible to impart much more information that is contained in tabs which seem impossibly archaic. It sounds like your father was trying to remedy that situation.
He sure was and his scores are a piece of art on it's own. Still he considers a "1 to 1" encounter between student and teacher (based on monkey see monkey do) to be the basis of learning flamenco. I'm still amazed how many people fail to deduct the correct interpretation from written notes once they have reached decent levels of playing. You often have to tell them the same things over and over again. Once (when there was no opportunity for personal coaching) my father decided to include the official orchestral interpretation sigs for a (also classical schooled) player who had to perform that brand new into on stage the very next day and with success, it was exactly played like intended.
Speaking about this day and age: i.m.o. the world has become much smaller in the last decennia...every corner of the world is just 1 mouse click away and finding material of the great performers is more easy than ever before. When records came out we could hear them, now we can also see them.
Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to pink)
What a thread .... a psychological analysis of rythm and flamenco and africans and marocco and what not with a 150 years old book from James Marc Baldwin and ...
I have no problem being an uneducated primitive ape from Iran born with a genetic metronome in my ass,,, as long as i can play bulerias in compas, i am happy and its all good
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to Arash)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Arash
I have no problem being an uneducated primitive ape from Iran born with a genetic metronome in my ass,,, as long as i can play bulerias in compas, i am happy and its all good
You are a lucky man....sadly when I play bulerias it sounds like its coming out of my ass!
Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to pink)
quote:
ORIGINAL: pink
quote:
ORIGINAL: Arash
I have no problem being an uneducated primitive ape from Iran born with a genetic metronome in my ass,,, as long as i can play bulerias in compas, i am happy and its all good
You are a lucky man....sadly when I play bulerias it sounds like its coming out of my ass!
Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to Leñador)
Flamenco is full-blooded, full-strength, xxxx, 15% Vol., un-lite, no-nuance, full-fat rumpy-pumpy. Like having a chat and a smoke with 2-packs-a-day Ava Gardner in Chelsea (which I did).
Can't speak for hoity-toity classical guitar stuff (which I haven't).
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to Arash)
quote:
as long as i can play bulerias in compas, i am happy and its all good
quote]I found myself going to any "old cante" record whenever Iam looking for some new exciting stuff to listen to.
Bueno, hombres; muy bueno.
Although I was never that crazy about Bulerias ( a bit too fast for me) I feel really moved ( almost elevated) when (trying to ) playing some of those beautiful old creative Montoya falsetas in Soleares, Fandangos, Seguiriyas, Granadinas, etc. etc. etc.
What could anyone want more than that? Not in my lifetime. . .
For me, (pathetic as it may sound to some ) THAT is the sound of flamenco. . .
Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
My regards to those who can discuss the topic without personal insult. My experience with CG is that the interpreter's job is almost completely to add life and nuance to a lifeless blueprint. And that blueprint is harmonically and melodically, though usually not rhythmically, far, far more complicated than a flamenco composition.
Even something like a Sor study has 3 voices, all of which are supposed to be clearly heard and understood by the listener. The famous Sor-Segovia, Op6No8 is such a piece. My sheet music literally has pencil marks for interpretation and direction on every measure. Certain notes are accented so that the listener is made aware a new melody is starting. A common "move" is that the treble gets louder while the bass simultaneouly gets more quiet. Every dominant chord is played louder than its resolution. In the penultimate section there is a chain is suspension/resolutions where a chord resolves to another which resolves to another. When I say "chord", it is probably more true to realize you are playing three melodies at the same time, which all must sing and act like melodies, which often come together in chord shapes. And this is a 39 mm. study based on a simple three note theme.
As beautiful as Sabicas and Paco's compositions are, surely one can't make the same claim. The amount of information in a handful of measures of a Bach fugue, all of which is meant to be clearly articulated, might be the equivalent of an entire simple flamenco composition such as Panaderos Flamencos. And all CGers play Bach.
It would seem difficult to argue that the flamenco players can add as much nuance to homophonic lines as a CGer _must_ to complex, polyphonic work. Unless the argument is the extra rhythmic options take up the slack.
Ah, no. I think we went over this topic long ago. I do make such a claim regarding flamenco composers. Sor, really?? Most all of flamenco is about theme and variation as well. I have a degree in music and studied classical guitar. Sor bach (fugue and chaconne lute stuff etc typical stuff) villa lobos, brower, albeniz etc etc. It was all cake compared getting the details of sound and expression of the flamenco stuff I was trying to learn from transcriptions. It wasn't until video and years later going to spain that I captured HOW to get the details I struggled with. You see in flamenco all the stuff that was being questioned in this topic by aeolus is just called "flamenco" sound...you either sound flamenco or you don't. Its quite obivous to those that know, and quite mystery to those that don't. It can be as all detailed as Erik describes and possible to print in a score, but it is silly to think the sound colors of classical guitar tech are in some other realm of difficulty. Silly.
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to Ricardo)
Well, how about this: the Melchor de Marchena clip was nice and certainly was loaded with uncountable details ("the sound"). So, to turn it around, why wouldn't it be harder to do the same thing for a polyphonic work? Take away the details and both flamenco and classical suck. I'm sure you saw a certain flamenco playing that Am Bach fugue. I would say the flamenco has the easier path simply for the fact that he can tap into a living, breathing tradition--imagine what kind of stuff you could pick up from hanging out with Bach every summer.
By the way, you never mentioned you'd studied classical guitar when you were messing around with the Chaconne. Holding out on me!
Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
Well, how about this: the Melchor de Marchena clip was nice and certainly was loaded with uncountable details ("the sound"). So, to turn it around, why wouldn't it be harder to do the same thing for a polyphonic work? Take away the details and both flamenco and classical suck. I'm sure you saw a certain flamenco playing that Am Bach fugue. I would say the flamenco has the easier path simply for the fact that he can tap into a living, breathing tradition--imagine what kind of stuff you could pick up from hanging out with Bach every summer.
By the way, you never mentioned you'd studied classical guitar when you were messing around with the Chaconne. Holding out on me!
Why wouldn't it be harder for polyphony? Because it might be slower for one? It really depends on specifics. Take away details of guitar technique and touch, well it's easy. midi. have the computer play it with no dynamics etc. Flamenco can sound really cool (not strumming sadly but just the notes and rhythms of falsetas). You can compare it to bach. bach sounds pretty good on the computer too, the polyphony. but orders of magnitude compositionally, nah.....well, I guess it is just taste. I think Bach had cool rhythms sometimes, compared to other classical composers and styles but it is not fair to say only rhythm is the distinction. I just don' hear guitar players doing it right or the way I envision it most of the time, and for what reason. Tone colors? pffff . Flamenco players only have it easier because they compose for GUITAR and the technique they use contains devices so the music is always fluid...classical players adapt stuff most often that was not for the guitar. It's cool, but sometimes harder than a composer might have intended it.
Bach worked with dance forms just like flamencos. He might have found challenges there as with fugue chaconne etc. Flamenco has "rules" too, and Bach was quite systematic as a composer. Instrument though is the thing. Bach was thinking keyboards and someone like glenn gould is most convincing for me with polyphony and rhythm. But violin stuff is cool, cello etc...that all doesnt work on guitar IMO. I mean the partita in E major (lute suite transcription) the prelude is great for guitar, though tough to do fast unless you play flamenco ( ) but the loure thing is just stupid if you can't hold the voices like the violin. It sounds completely ridiculous to me compositionally on guitar. But on the violin its great. I don't buy into this holier than all other composer status thing. It is one thing to respect a composer, and another to like a piece or not. If you play keyboards, bach or beethoven is your guy and you look at mozart as bla. If you play guitar Paco de lucia is like beethoven.
I was checking Gavotte and Rondeu from that E major suite, and always annoyed at Bach for landing the maj7 and resolving a beat late. But then I saw the score and realized that is just some bs segovia added, the violin doesn't do that. Now I like it again. And I read the violin version is on the gold record floating out in space for aliens to discover and got to thinking (there is NO spanish music at all on that disc) if I could pick ONE piece to put on a record like that to represent flamenco, what would it be? Tough question.
Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to Ricardo)
Thanks Ricardo,...the voice of reason. This must be one of the craziest threads ever.
Its Britguy I feel sorry for; it was a simple enough question after all. Well I usually have two or three guitars on the go at any one time. I just play one for a few days and then change. The change is always refreshing and gives me a fresh impetus. Can't imagine just having one guitar.
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to jeff_hatcher)
quote:
ORIGINAL: jeff_hatcher
Turkish citizens (who have adapted to many comforts of civilization since 1921) are able to detect alterations in complex rhythmic patterns better than Americans.
That has not to do with assumed complexitty of Turkish music rather than with decreased differeciating skills of western youth, who according to surveys will only distinguish a fraction of the number of colour shades that people were able to tell apart one generation ago, and show widely unreceptive for musical structures as well.
This is what minds don´t understand who deem their motto of "Everything is of equal quality" as tolerance. The brain functions by reflecting quality and quantity of input. What goes in defines cognitive abilities. And if the input is trivial so will be the differenciating ability, notwithstandingly of how fast your brain might be able to compute.Where there is mainly undemanding primitive product to reflect on talent will dry up and IQ develop downhill.
The actual reason for lacking differenciating skills in western culture simply is low cultural product. ( Surprise, surprise! )
And what the quoted mixed-up comparison is concerned: I don´t know when such survey and comparison was done, but be sure that if it was repeated there would show evident a clear tendency of align in consequence of contemporary culture visible on audible Turkish TV-channels that copy 1:1 western examples of rap & techno MTV and successors with the basic difference of merely language and orients constant tremelo.
And to the above suggestion of having been born with a metronome as if anemic musical structure was advancing anything: Ears that grow up exclusicely exposed to Iranian music develop even more dispassionate to music in general, and more numb even to musical beauty than those of rap and techno kids. Exceptions in my experience have only been with individuals who had the chance of hearing and enjoying world music as well ( which left none of them all too passionate about their homeland music either ).
-
I find the thesis convincing that wehre there is little development of melody and melodic variety there will be more drumming. At times bpm obviously making good for scarce variety of pitch and lack of vowel instruments ( playing). And there exist the opposite example too, when there is almost only ( simple) melody and very little of rhythmical accent ( like with much of German language traditionals in Germany, Austria and Swiss.)
That is what makes some folklore so outstanding as they manage to deliver plenty of both like for example with flamenco, Irish folk or African chorusses.
Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to Ruphus)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ruphus
And to the above suggestion of having been born with a metronome as if anemic musical structure was advancing anything: Ears that grow up exclusicely exposed to Iranian music develop even more dispassionate to music in general, and more numb even to musical beauty than those of rap and techno kids. Exceptions in my experience have only been with individuals who had the chance of hearing and enjoying world music as well ( which left none of them all too passionate about their homeland music either ).
Ruphus
Don't take the metronome thing too seriously. I don't believe in all that geographical/genetic/whatever disposition (or disadvantage) nonsence. Just Don't know how else to react to the "weird" theories about flamenco i was forced to read in this thread. Surroundings and influences in childhood are important. I agree. I am pretty sure if Eskimos would take an african baby and raise it in north pole, he wouldn't be able to move his body to the most simple african rythm later, if he shouldn't practice it hard. And i believe if Gypsies would raise an eskimo baby and let him learn guitar, he could be as good as any other spanish guitarist. No disadvantage. And as for iranian music (not important here but since you mentioned it): we have iranian music and we have iranian "music". Traditional iranian music with all the complexity, modes, traditional instruments, etc. and the iranian bullcrap which you mostly see in american persian tv channels produced for pubescent girls, bitter widows and insecure boys who pluck their eyebrows and are unsure if they should become totally gay or just a little bit (no offence to gays, you know what i mean). Since most people in Iran had and have the chance to hear world music just like anybody else and in addition their own music, the rest is simply a choice. If i would compare the number of young people playing flamenco guitar in Iran to let say Germany, i would say its 100 times higher. They are crazy for it, Even though its much more difficult for them to get a flamenco guitar like here and even though the enviroment in which they live is "unfriendly" towards music (and joy in general). For instance they can't even play with dancers.
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to krichards)
quote:
Its Britguy I feel sorry for; it was a simple enough question after all
Thanks for reminding us, Kevin.
I was just wondering, yesterday, if anyone actually remembererd what my original post was for. And how did it develop into such an eclectic, back and forth treatise on classical versus flamenco, interpretation, musical theory, historical origins, etc. etc. etc.
But, have to say, there was some very intersting stuff going on in here. Albeit unrelated to the original post.
Nevertheless; agree or disagree, I learned a few things from those posters whose musical knowledge is much more profound than mine. (Now if only I could get that old Tarantas tremolo falseta sounding just right???)'
And; next - and obvious - question: " which guitar do I play today???"
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to Arash)
not really ...most of the time i would play my yamaha , to learn stuff and mess about .. but if its time to record or see how all the stuff i learned could sound better then its time to get out somethings else ......which is , of course like new ,,,,,
Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to El Kiko)
quote:
ORIGINAL: El Kiko
not really ...most of the time i would play my yamaha , to learn stuff and mess about .. but if its time to record or see how all the stuff i learned could sound better then its time to get out somethings else ......which is , of course like new ,,,,,
So the Yamaha..........Shroomy
So you guys are simply masochists. ;)
I would agree if the question was "which guitar do i play today at the beach?"
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to Arash)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Arash
Don't take the metronome thing too seriously. I don't believe in all that geographical/genetic/whatever disposition (or disadvantage) nonsence. Just Don't know how else to react to the "weird" theories about flamenco i was forced to read in this thread. Surroundings and influences in childhood are important. I agree. I am pretty sure if Eskimos would take an african baby and raise it in north pole, he wouldn't be able to move his body to the most simple african rythm later, if he shouldn't practice it hard. And i believe if Gypsies would raise an eskimo baby and let him learn guitar, he could be as good as any other spanish guitarist. No disadvantage. And as for iranian music (not important here but since you mentioned it): we have iranian music and we have iranian "music". Traditional iranian music with all the complexity, modes, traditional instruments, etc. and the iranian bullcrap which you mostly see in american persian tv channels produced for pubescent girls, bitter widows and insecure boys who pluck their eyebrows and are unsure if they should become totally gay or just a little bit (no offence to gays, you know what i mean). Since most people in Iran had and have the chance to hear world music just like anybody else and in addition their own music, the rest is simply a choice. If i would compare the number of young people playing flamenco guitar in Iran to let say Germany, i would say its 100 times higher. They are crazy for it, Even though its much more difficult for them to get a flamenco guitar like here and even though the enviroment in which they live is "unfriendly" towards music (and joy in general). For instance they can't even play with dancers.
Agreed with everything you said, except of one point which is that I personally don´t see the traditional music as all too demanding either. This is based on what I have heard of it, which very likely didn´t include all of the best of it. ( Just what you get to hear when Joe Somebody puts on traditional records, or worse: What you gett presented in the national media there, which is unbearably lame stuff.) So, by what I have auditioned, apart of only a few pieces, the most of it is scarce of developing structure, developing rhythm and of variety. Basically a small number of patterns over which is being improvised, with notes few in numbers, rather exchangable and always tremolo. ( <- I would say a total overuse of a stylistic means. And I would add: Why the hell no progress and expansion in any way since thousands of years?!)
In my personal experience it is the most dull, sadest and sleepy style of the orientals, in monotony only beaten by Iranian Kurdish music which seems basically all one song going "deng dereng deng derengdeng deng deng ||".
Of the demanding traditional pieces there are some of which one could think that is where rock came from ( if it weren´t from the Anglo-Saxon-Afrrican roots), but of those I have come to hear maybe a handful in decades, and seeing my empirics average I venture to assume that there actually exists just a very tiny reservoir of versatile and complex stuff.
- If you are certain that there exists a wide store of rich traditional music, please be so kind to let me know names of albums and I´ll try to get a hand on them and see.
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to pink)
I am chosing the Ramirez blanca since a year or so now. The DeVoe negra has great sparkle of overtones and everything, but is a tad too stiff for my taste. ( Could be that would change if played for more than just some months ...) The estudio Miguel Rodriguez is the most flamenco of them all, but not as open as concert level instruments, and its neck could need some treatment. I will get back to them with time.
The others are classicals, acoustics, strat and a banjo.
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to Ricardo)
Ricardo, actually last night, I was haunted by this and realized you were right. About the details, nuance. Sometimes a cantaor can open their mouth and in a second can evoke so much. How can that one "half note" sound so different than when someone else says "ay"? There's a whole wealth of that stuff and most of us hackers never really manage to properly perceive it and incorporate it into our playing.
Probably the most reasonable thing is that if CGers bust their a$$ learning it, and FGers do the same, is to guess it's about the same level of difficulty and leave it at that. The challenges may lie in slightly different areas. I mention polyphony because for me, learning that kind of music is at least 5X as hard as homophonic stuff (at least the MIDI version, you know).
I'm with you about that lame loure... Barrueco sounds great when he recorded that suite until it screeches to a halt there. I am going to learn that beautiful E maj prelude someday! And I think Gould is my favorite Bach interpreter too, I listen to his Inventions and Sinfonias quite a bit.
This passacaglia from Handel would be very cool for a flamenco to pick up:
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to pink)
Only David Russell can pull off that piece. Since no one can play it but him, it gets no recognition however. IMO interpreting that piece to classical guitar is more of a triumph than Bach's Chaccone ever was (not dissing it, it's a great piece as well).
Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to Ruphus)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ruphus
Agreed with everything you said, except of one point which is that I personally don´t see the traditional music as all too demanding either. This is based on what I have heard of it, which very likely didn´t include all of the best of it. ( Just what you get to hear when Joe Somebody puts on traditional records, or worse: What you gett presented in the national media there, which is unbearably lame stuff.) So, by what I have auditioned, apart of only a few pieces, the most of it is scarce of developing structure, developing rhythm and of variety. Basically a small number of patterns over which is being improvised, with notes few in numbers, rather exchangable and always tremolo. ( <- I would say a total overuse of a stylistic means. And I would add: Why the hell no progress and expansion in any way since thousands of years?!)
In my personal experience it is the most dull, sadest and sleepy style of the orientals, in monotony only beaten by Iranian Kurdish music which seems basically all one song going "deng dereng deng derengdeng deng deng ||".
Of the demanding traditional pieces there are some of which one could think that is where rock came from ( if it weren´t from the Anglo-Saxon-Afrrican roots), but of those I have come to hear maybe a handful in decades, and seeing my empirics average I venture to assume that there actually exists just a very tiny reservoir of versatile and complex stuff.
- If you are certain that there exists a wide store of rich traditional music, please be so kind to let me know names of albums and I´ll try to get a hand on them and see.
Thank you,
Ruphus
This brings us back to opinion and taste. Also it might look easy, but take a setar/tar for instance and try to improvise with the same timing, accentuations, feelings, etc. and you will pretty soon find out that it takes years of practicing and playing with other iranian musicians, listen to the traditional music, etc. (just like flamenco) to be able to do it the way the "masters" do it. it might look like a repetition of same notes and undemanding when you are unfamiliar (or less familliar) with the style. Also it helps if you can somehow connect this traditional music with a specific type of emotion or feeling, which of course is hard for non-iranians, i agree. Its like me the first times i heard cante. i couldn't do anything with it. up until i heard it over and over again. and still i don't understand what they are singing about, but at least i get the "feeling" and very much enjoy it.
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to pink)
Hi Arash,
I get your drift with how personal connection can spice up otherwise pale material, and I have my own weak spots for a couple of otherwiise trivial pieces too, like probably everyone else.
But I do not believe that monotony becomes variety through training ears. I would say that repetition of same notes, staying within a very limited range of musical scale, no invention / musical / compositional expansion since millenia, as well as prevailing melancholy and tremolo remain given characteristics.
Unfortunately. I was sincerely hoping for you to introduce me into some more complex and pulling variety.
Also unfortunately can´t see the videos. Everything pictures, videos and music is blocked due to mental stagnation similar to the one mentioned above.
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