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Does playing Classical help your Flamenco?   You are logged in as Guest
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britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

Does playing Classical help your Fla... 

Not sure if this question was raised before, but I wonder how many of the Foro members also play Classical. And if they feel it helps, or hinders, their flamenco technique?

Does one need a different 'mindset' when playing classical, than playing flamenco.

I was always a great admirer of Vicente Gomez for his ability to play both styles equally well. Although I think he often used the classical hold when playing flamenco.

Any thoughts?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2013 15:50:18
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Does playing Classical help your... (in reply to britguy

I don't play any classical but I've seen Adam Del Monte play classical and he's a madman at it. If I remember correctly he whooped out his little foot pedal for it and everything.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2013 16:07:52
 
rickm

 

Posts: 446
Joined: Jan. 23 2004
 

RE: Does playing Classical help your... (in reply to britguy

imo everything helps. Hendrix studied classical and flamenco and if you look at his one tune, jam at woodstock the beginning stanzas are taken right out of flamenco
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2013 16:53:04
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13331
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Does playing Classical help your... (in reply to britguy

Won't help necessarily, but it can hinder. Vice e versa is true as well. Flamenco might help with rhythmic interpretations, but tone production can potentially be a problem if you want to play classical guitar. Some gifted folks can deal (like ToddK for example) with a very versatile technique and ear for tone production.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2013 17:08:45
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Does playing Classical help your... (in reply to britguy

I guess it does indeed take a different "mindset" to master various approaches of playing. My father had to learn to play the guitar all over again a couple of times. Lacking the money to pay for lessons he first learned to play himself from a little book. After spending over 15.000 hour on stage (playing pop and world music) he became a student of classical guitar at Rotterdam Concervatorium were he graduated cum laude in only 4 years time (on top of having a full time job as a guitar teacher). He became the head of classical guitar of Rotterdam Conservatorium himself (late 60ties) and privately specialized himself in the art of early music. All those different instruments demanded specialized knowledge about annotation/interpretation/tuning/technique. Playing a guitar is quite different than playing an alto guitar/lute or baroque guitar.

In 1985 he specialized himself in playing flamenco as well (receiving private lessons from his friend Paco Peña). Obviously his talent, discipline and wide knowledge of guitar playing did help him in mastering flamenco but he still had to start from scratch were the right hand was involved (especially when you want to master Paco Peña's refined thump and rasgueado techniques). I guess in the same way PDL/Conde developed a hybrid flamenco guitar (offering more tonal quality fitting the growing demands of solo playing) my father probably uses some of his classical techniques in flamenco and some of his flamenco techniques in classical music. Both can benefit from each other.

I combine flamenco with playing 12 string guitar witch is quite a different world as well. I composed a very nice soleares falseta when i tried to imply my 12 string campanella style in flamenco, but aside from that one time attempt i use totally different (right hand) techniques.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2013 18:28:10
 
Wannabee

 

Posts: 131
Joined: Jan. 13 2007
 

RE: Does playing Classical help your... (in reply to britguy

I found that the right hand techniques are quit different between the 2 styles.

I had to re-learn how to use my thumb when I started learning Flamenco.

It took me about a year to really get over the differences, but different folks

might have an easier time of it.

Also the kind of tone that most classical players strive for is kind of a hindrance when learning flamenco. The reason I think this is because the nail shape I used
for classical tone production was much longer and different than for flamenco.

In classical it seems OK to stretch the rhythm in order to achieve "that perfect tone" but flamenco seems to be the opposite. In flamenco the rhythm comes first.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2013 20:12:04
 
chester

Posts: 842
Joined: Oct. 29 2010
 

RE: Does playing Classical help your... (in reply to rickm

quote:

ORIGINAL: rickm

imo everything helps. Hendrix studied classical and flamenco and if you look at his one tune, jam at woodstock the beginning stanzas are taken right out of flamenco

Dude, Hendrix most definitely did not study classical nor flamenco. He grew up on Blues and RnB - as is evident from his playing.

I think he shared a stage with Paco Pena once, but that's probably the extent of his flamenco 'education'.

I do agree that everything helps though. You just need to put things in perspective and know which aspects are idiosyncratic to each style.

Music is a language and each genre is a dialect. There's a difference between having a conversation and understanding linguistics. After many years pursuing technique my best advice is to study and understand theory - it will take you much further than a fast picado.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2013 0:55:33
 
xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1789
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: Does playing Classical help your... (in reply to chester

Jimi studied the phrygian mode :D

in flamenco rhythm is of course key, but tone is equally important, just see how many players can pull off difficult stuff yet sound cr@p...

i think studying classical can improve the left hand a lot, but i find flamenco right hand superior to classical style...and very few people can play both very well...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2013 1:04:20
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Does playing Classical help your... (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ

I think contemporary flamenco owes more to Hendrix than is immediately apparent. Old school and Sabicas is quite classical in texure at times but modern stuff is more like Jazz chord melody.

Paco was around town in the disco era and I hear a big funk influence in Scirroco and Luzia, not in the harmony or melody but definately in the use of the guitar, slides and chord stabs.

Maybe learning a new style is like cooking, first you learn some classic recipes. Then you experiment. For sure at first it will be crap and only you will want to eat it. But with experience you learn what really works and how to make the best of the ingredients that you have.

Study everything you like, and don't feell like you should reject anything that used to move you unless you are quite sure it is sh@t. And get as much theory as you can for sure, but not just classical theory but theory that fits all the music you play.

Try and play Steve Cropper in the style of Fernando Sor and Fernando Sor in the style of Joe Pass. Yes put that green chill in a spaghetti carbonara. But, you know, just for yourself and cause thats all the stuff you have in the fridge.

And if your nails are too long for flamenco they were probably too long for classical.

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2013 1:57:45
 
edgar884

Posts: 1975
Joined: Nov. 16 2005
 

RE: Does playing Classical help your... (in reply to britguy

I played classical for many years before taking Flamenco seriously.
For me personally it was very difficult to overcome the free thumb in classical as opposed to the apoyanda (rest stroke thumb) in Flamenco. Funny thing is studying Flamenco just made my arpeggios stronger and my hand movements smaller.
Flamenco studies in my opinion are much more beneficial for right hand development.
I have a good left hand from all the classical studies but my right hand is still trying to overcome the bad habits of classical training.

Flamenco helped my classical but sometimes I wish I would have learned Flamenco first. The hardest thing for me has been the right hand.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2013 16:33:50
 
britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: Does playing Classical help your... (in reply to edgar884

quote:

For me personally it was very difficult to overcome the free thumb in classical as opposed to the apoyanda (rest stroke thumb) in Flamenco.


Interesting.

I have had a life-long problem with the thumb rest stroke, and tight finger movements (arpeggio and tremolo) , and no amount of practice seems to overcome it. I just seem to naturally prefer the looser, freer movements, and, probably due to lack of teaching and laziness, they just seem to persist. . .

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2013 16:45:21
 
edgar884

Posts: 1975
Joined: Nov. 16 2005
 

RE: Does playing Classical help your... (in reply to britguy

you just need to learn a good arpeggio exercise to fix your thumb.
if you want to play and sound Flamenco you will have to stop playing with a free thumb.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2013 19:30:04
 
gbv1158

 

Posts: 410
Joined: May 29 2009
From: Italy

RE: Does playing Classical help your... (in reply to britguy

classical training helps a lot, especially for the right hand and it is true that it requires another mindset.
About the thumb rests, the classic does not help; so I agree : more arpeggio exercises!

ciao,
giambatttista
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 11 2013 13:02:23
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5063
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: Does playing Classical help your... (in reply to britguy

quote:

Does playing Classical help your Flamenco?  


EDIT: aaaand its gone

btw im drunk...just back from celebrating carneval in colon..I´ll delete that anyways tomorrow.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 11 2013 21:01:02
 
britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: Does playing Classical help your... (in reply to Doitsujin

quote:

btw im drunk...just back from celebrating carneval in colon..


Well; I'm glad I'm not the only one in here who likes to get drunk occasionally. . .(like, maybe once a week???)

Maybe you find your playing improves, Doit???

Doesn't help mine very much, I'm afraid.

But there again , nothing else does either. . .

(Love that Chardonnay. . .)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2013 0:18:48
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Does playing Classical help your... (in reply to britguy

I think there's a perfect amount to drink that helps. After about 4 beers for me(I'm 200+ pounds), I'm loose but not sloppy, it feels like a sweet spot, each drink from then on gets worse and worse.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2013 0:31:43
 
flyhere

 

Posts: 121
Joined: Dec. 17 2012
 

[Deleted] 

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Aug. 27 2013 15:33:23
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2013 0:35:28
 
aloysius

Posts: 233
Joined: Apr. 7 2005
From: Adelaide, Australia

RE: Does playing Classical help your... (in reply to britguy

I think about this a lot at the moment, as I've recently gone back to uni to do honours classical guitar, but 90% of my playing work is flamenco (mostly dance accompaniment). I think they can help each other greatly, but you have to be careful not to let them contaminate each other as well.

I find it helpful to always try to use the classical playing position for classical and the flamenco one for flamenco - sounds trivial, but there are very good reasons not to use the playing position of one for the other, also for me more than anything it helps to separate the two techniques in my mind, then I have control over when to let the mindset of one style into the other. An obvious example is Rodrigo's works, the flamenco attitude is great for the runs and rasgueos.

One place where classical study can help other styles is the insane attention to details - really focusing in on the sound you produce and the shaping of the phrases.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2013 0:47:37
 
Castelat

 

Posts: 113
Joined: Nov. 22 2010
From: The Hispanic Kingdoms

RE: Does playing Classical help your... (in reply to britguy

I play both, and sometimes I get confuse when I'm on a classical piece with tremolo and I use flamenco tremolo instead. :)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2013 1:19:47
 
Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Does playing Classical help your... (in reply to edgar884

quote:

Funny thing is studying Flamenco just made my arpeggios stronger and my hand movements smaller.
Flamenco studies in my opinion are much more beneficial for right hand development.
Flamenco helped my classical but sometimes I wish I would have learned Flamenco first


I completely agree. I play both and whilst I dont think that playing Classical helps your flamenco playing, flamenco technique can definately help your classical playing. My classical arpeggios are 10 times stronger now than before I learned flamenco. Also i prefer to hear spanish classical composition performed rhythmically rather than concentrating on the tone of the instrument. Saying that i have to agree with aloysius, the classical training really helps you nail the intonantion.
Getting used to switching betwwen classical and flamenco tremelo is just a matter of time. I found it confusing for the first couple of years. Now i can switch without thinking about it.
I consider myself more of a hybrid guitarist these days. Thats ok though...Im neither a flamenco or classical purist. If the technique serves me to play what i Like and interpret how i like then thats for me the most important issue.

EDIT p.s. the Romeros used to talk about studying exercises by Sor and Aguardo a couple of hours every day before their flamenco repertoire. I guess those studies really help the left hand.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2013 12:46:33
 
Flamencito

Posts: 334
Joined: Oct. 31 2012
From: The Netherlands

RE: Does playing Classical help your... (in reply to Doitsujin

quote:

EDIT: aaaand its gone


Is that quoted from the hilarious Southpark episode about the banking system?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2013 12:53:45
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