Does playing Classical help your Flamenco? (Full Version)

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britguy -> Does playing Classical help your Flamenco? (Feb. 7 2013 15:50:18)

Not sure if this question was raised before, but I wonder how many of the Foro members also play Classical. And if they feel it helps, or hinders, their flamenco technique?

Does one need a different 'mindset' when playing classical, than playing flamenco.

I was always a great admirer of Vicente Gomez for his ability to play both styles equally well. Although I think he often used the classical hold when playing flamenco.

Any thoughts?




Leñador -> RE: Does playing Classical help your Flamenco? (Feb. 7 2013 16:07:52)

I don't play any classical but I've seen Adam Del Monte play classical and he's a madman at it. If I remember correctly he whooped out his little foot pedal for it and everything.




rickm -> RE: Does playing Classical help your Flamenco? (Feb. 7 2013 16:53:04)

imo everything helps. Hendrix studied classical and flamenco and if you look at his one tune, jam at woodstock the beginning stanzas are taken right out of flamenco




Ricardo -> RE: Does playing Classical help your Flamenco? (Feb. 7 2013 17:08:45)

Won't help necessarily, but it can hinder. Vice e versa is true as well. Flamenco might help with rhythmic interpretations, but tone production can potentially be a problem if you want to play classical guitar. Some gifted folks can deal (like ToddK for example) with a very versatile technique and ear for tone production.




Erik van Goch -> RE: Does playing Classical help your Flamenco? (Feb. 7 2013 18:28:10)

I guess it does indeed take a different "mindset" to master various approaches of playing. My father had to learn to play the guitar all over again a couple of times. Lacking the money to pay for lessons he first learned to play himself from a little book. After spending over 15.000 hour on stage (playing pop and world music) he became a student of classical guitar at Rotterdam Concervatorium were he graduated cum laude in only 4 years time (on top of having a full time job as a guitar teacher). He became the head of classical guitar of Rotterdam Conservatorium himself (late 60ties) and privately specialized himself in the art of early music. All those different instruments demanded specialized knowledge about annotation/interpretation/tuning/technique. Playing a guitar is quite different than playing an alto guitar/lute or baroque guitar.

In 1985 he specialized himself in playing flamenco as well (receiving private lessons from his friend Paco Peña). Obviously his talent, discipline and wide knowledge of guitar playing did help him in mastering flamenco but he still had to start from scratch were the right hand was involved (especially when you want to master Paco Peña's refined thump and rasgueado techniques). I guess in the same way PDL/Conde developed a hybrid flamenco guitar (offering more tonal quality fitting the growing demands of solo playing) my father probably uses some of his classical techniques in flamenco and some of his flamenco techniques in classical music. Both can benefit from each other.

I combine flamenco with playing 12 string guitar witch is quite a different world as well. I composed a very nice soleares falseta when i tried to imply my 12 string campanella style in flamenco, but aside from that one time attempt i use totally different (right hand) techniques.




Wannabee -> RE: Does playing Classical help your Flamenco? (Feb. 7 2013 20:12:04)

I found that the right hand techniques are quit different between the 2 styles.

I had to re-learn how to use my thumb when I started learning Flamenco.

It took me about a year to really get over the differences, but different folks

might have an easier time of it.

Also the kind of tone that most classical players strive for is kind of a hindrance when learning flamenco. The reason I think this is because the nail shape I used
for classical tone production was much longer and different than for flamenco.

In classical it seems OK to stretch the rhythm in order to achieve "that perfect tone" but flamenco seems to be the opposite. In flamenco the rhythm comes first.




chester -> RE: Does playing Classical help your Flamenco? (Feb. 8 2013 0:55:33)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rickm

imo everything helps. Hendrix studied classical and flamenco and if you look at his one tune, jam at woodstock the beginning stanzas are taken right out of flamenco

Dude, Hendrix most definitely did not study classical nor flamenco. He grew up on Blues and RnB - as is evident from his playing.

I think he shared a stage with Paco Pena once, but that's probably the extent of his flamenco 'education'.

I do agree that everything helps though. You just need to put things in perspective and know which aspects are idiosyncratic to each style.

Music is a language and each genre is a dialect. There's a difference between having a conversation and understanding linguistics. After many years pursuing technique my best advice is to study and understand theory - it will take you much further than a fast picado.




xirdneH_imiJ -> RE: Does playing Classical help your Flamenco? (Feb. 8 2013 1:04:20)

Jimi studied the phrygian mode :D

in flamenco rhythm is of course key, but tone is equally important, just see how many players can pull off difficult stuff yet sound cr@p...

i think studying classical can improve the left hand a lot, but i find flamenco right hand superior to classical style...and very few people can play both very well...




guitarbuddha -> RE: Does playing Classical help your Flamenco? (Feb. 8 2013 1:57:45)

I think contemporary flamenco owes more to Hendrix than is immediately apparent. Old school and Sabicas is quite classical in texure at times but modern stuff is more like Jazz chord melody.

Paco was around town in the disco era and I hear a big funk influence in Scirroco and Luzia, not in the harmony or melody but definately in the use of the guitar, slides and chord stabs.

Maybe learning a new style is like cooking, first you learn some classic recipes. Then you experiment. For sure at first it will be crap and only you will want to eat it. But with experience you learn what really works and how to make the best of the ingredients that you have.

Study everything you like, and don't feell like you should reject anything that used to move you unless you are quite sure it is sh@t. And get as much theory as you can for sure, but not just classical theory but theory that fits all the music you play.

Try and play Steve Cropper in the style of Fernando Sor and Fernando Sor in the style of Joe Pass. Yes put that green chill in a spaghetti carbonara. But, you know, just for yourself and cause thats all the stuff you have in the fridge.

And if your nails are too long for flamenco they were probably too long for classical.

D.




edgar884 -> RE: Does playing Classical help your Flamenco? (Feb. 10 2013 16:33:50)

I played classical for many years before taking Flamenco seriously.
For me personally it was very difficult to overcome the free thumb in classical as opposed to the apoyanda (rest stroke thumb) in Flamenco. Funny thing is studying Flamenco just made my arpeggios stronger and my hand movements smaller.
Flamenco studies in my opinion are much more beneficial for right hand development.
I have a good left hand from all the classical studies but my right hand is still trying to overcome the bad habits of classical training.

Flamenco helped my classical but sometimes I wish I would have learned Flamenco first. The hardest thing for me has been the right hand.




britguy -> RE: Does playing Classical help your Flamenco? (Feb. 10 2013 16:45:21)

quote:

For me personally it was very difficult to overcome the free thumb in classical as opposed to the apoyanda (rest stroke thumb) in Flamenco.


Interesting.

I have had a life-long problem with the thumb rest stroke, and tight finger movements (arpeggio and tremolo) , and no amount of practice seems to overcome it. I just seem to naturally prefer the looser, freer movements, and, probably due to lack of teaching and laziness, they just seem to persist. . .




edgar884 -> RE: Does playing Classical help your Flamenco? (Feb. 10 2013 19:30:04)

you just need to learn a good arpeggio exercise to fix your thumb.
if you want to play and sound Flamenco you will have to stop playing with a free thumb.




gbv1158 -> RE: Does playing Classical help your Flamenco? (Feb. 11 2013 13:02:23)

classical training helps a lot, especially for the right hand and it is true that it requires another mindset.
About the thumb rests, the classic does not help; so I agree : more arpeggio exercises!

ciao,
giambatttista




Doitsujin -> RE: Does playing Classical help your Flamenco? (Feb. 11 2013 21:01:02)

quote:

Does playing Classical help your Flamenco?  


EDIT: aaaand its gone

btw im drunk...just back from celebrating carneval in colon..I´ll delete that anyways tomorrow.




britguy -> RE: Does playing Classical help your Flamenco? (Feb. 12 2013 0:18:48)

quote:

btw im drunk...just back from celebrating carneval in colon..


Well; I'm glad I'm not the only one in here who likes to get drunk occasionally. . .(like, maybe once a week???)

Maybe you find your playing improves, Doit???

Doesn't help mine very much, I'm afraid.

But there again , nothing else does either. . .

(Love that Chardonnay. . .)




Leñador -> RE: Does playing Classical help your Flamenco? (Feb. 12 2013 0:31:43)

I think there's a perfect amount to drink that helps. After about 4 beers for me(I'm 200+ pounds), I'm loose but not sloppy, it feels like a sweet spot, each drink from then on gets worse and worse.




flyhere -> [Deleted] (Feb. 12 2013 0:35:28)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Aug. 27 2013 15:33:23




aloysius -> RE: Does playing Classical help your Flamenco? (Feb. 12 2013 0:47:37)

I think about this a lot at the moment, as I've recently gone back to uni to do honours classical guitar, but 90% of my playing work is flamenco (mostly dance accompaniment). I think they can help each other greatly, but you have to be careful not to let them contaminate each other as well.

I find it helpful to always try to use the classical playing position for classical and the flamenco one for flamenco - sounds trivial, but there are very good reasons not to use the playing position of one for the other, also for me more than anything it helps to separate the two techniques in my mind, then I have control over when to let the mindset of one style into the other. An obvious example is Rodrigo's works, the flamenco attitude is great for the runs and rasgueos.

One place where classical study can help other styles is the insane attention to details - really focusing in on the sound you produce and the shaping of the phrases.




Castelat -> RE: Does playing Classical help your Flamenco? (Feb. 12 2013 1:19:47)

I play both, and sometimes I get confuse when I'm on a classical piece with tremolo and I use flamenco tremolo instead. :)




Pimientito -> RE: Does playing Classical help your Flamenco? (Feb. 12 2013 12:46:33)

quote:

Funny thing is studying Flamenco just made my arpeggios stronger and my hand movements smaller.
Flamenco studies in my opinion are much more beneficial for right hand development.
Flamenco helped my classical but sometimes I wish I would have learned Flamenco first


I completely agree. I play both and whilst I dont think that playing Classical helps your flamenco playing, flamenco technique can definately help your classical playing. My classical arpeggios are 10 times stronger now than before I learned flamenco. Also i prefer to hear spanish classical composition performed rhythmically rather than concentrating on the tone of the instrument. Saying that i have to agree with aloysius, the classical training really helps you nail the intonantion.
Getting used to switching betwwen classical and flamenco tremelo is just a matter of time. I found it confusing for the first couple of years. Now i can switch without thinking about it.
I consider myself more of a hybrid guitarist these days. Thats ok though...Im neither a flamenco or classical purist. If the technique serves me to play what i Like and interpret how i like then thats for me the most important issue.

EDIT p.s. the Romeros used to talk about studying exercises by Sor and Aguardo a couple of hours every day before their flamenco repertoire. I guess those studies really help the left hand.




Flamencito -> RE: Does playing Classical help your Flamenco? (Feb. 12 2013 12:53:45)

quote:

EDIT: aaaand its gone


Is that quoted from the hilarious Southpark episode about the banking system?




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