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How does the business of selling flamenco guitars work?
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aarongreen
Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
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 RE: How does the business of selling... (in reply to mlau)
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Calling it a business is really a stretch. Here's the various scenarios that play out in this err "business".
1) you like, you buy, for whatever reason, for whatever price
2) You like, but can not buy, for whatever reason, for whatever price . This is grossly unfair and the universe and everyone in it needs to make it better for you.
3) You don't know anything but got lots of money, you buy regardless of reason or price. You are very popular among those who's reputation has been built by those you respect.
4) You play lots of guitars, you find the one that speaks to you, you buy it and count yourself lucky to have found the one. The price you pay is small compared to the years of joy you experience, all is right in the world and you are a happy camper.
As a builder,
1) You build, you try to do your best, you hope for customer #1 or #4. If you are in a position to deal with customer #3 then you accept that you will have to take crap from customer #2.
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Date Jan. 30 2013 14:10:30
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britguy
Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada
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RE: How does the business of selling... (in reply to keith)
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quote:
would be akin to buying fruit from you.
Not quite the same, but. . .
I frequently give out "freebie" samples of my Asian Pears, and apples to potential customers, and most of my initial sales come fom that. Afterwards repeat orders are pretty regular. Mainly because my stuff is very fresh - usually picked the same day it is sold. As for promoting on YouTube (and the Foro?) - NO !!!
I've bought a few guitars "sight unseen" through this forum, and so far have been very happy with all of them (I'm a player, NOT a collector). But perhaps I have just been lucky, or maybe not over-critical?
But my question still rmains, what criteria could (or should) one apply in selecting a custom builder whose guitars one has not had the opportunity to play.
Maybe this is a dumb rhetorical question, but is the builder's reputation the sole criterion. . .
_____________________________
Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada
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Date Jan. 31 2013 14:29:40
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Ricardo
Posts: 15154
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: How does the business of selling... (in reply to mlau)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mlau
How does this whole crazy business work?
I see some guitars sold from $$$$$, which aren't very good.
There are other guitars which are very good (like Stephen's), but are only $$$$.
-Matt
Note, I'm not interested in getting in the business. I'm purely an amateur and content to stay a hobbyist.
A legit question that I think was answered sort of bitterly and sarcastically (understandably). But for any new comers, here is how I understand it.
Its based on USED instrument sales mainly. That means, long ago like 1912 ish, the flamenco and classical guitar designs got more or less set in stone, and you have branches and lines of builders under the main ones. THat means you had instruments that were normal price of their day, but after the luthier dies you have the apprentice building under the same name trying to establish his OWN work, by building in the same style. So over time the ORIGINAL makers instruments that appear become more and more valuable (because you can't get one new at fair price) and the price gets driven up and up.
At a certain point in history (lets say Ramirez III) it was clear demand was too high and "student" guitars built with lesser materials were made in large enough quantities to fill demands. So to distinguish between A and B guitars , the name of a luthier no long has the same importance. Things like a head cut or signature label, etc start having importance to price. (non of this has to do truly with performance, a B guitar still plays and sounds in tune and feeling etc as an A guitar, but cheaper materials and less love put in that's all). So the question of fakes and real deals becomes important and then again you have prices going up to keep things clear.
The general idea of an A guitar is that you buy it new...it devalues after that a little but increases over time. After 10 years it should have reached it's original sale price, then, if the maker has a good reputation and his or her instruments get sold at higher prices USED, then it keeps going and going up after 10 years. That is a general concept.
I have seen some guitars get blown out of proportion, and those are anamolies. Reyes for one....more than doubled in price suddenly as people hunted down a specific year ...that trickled out into any year of a authentic one. That was odd. The euro affect the price of NEW guitars such that a hot item such as Conde, went ABOVE it's resale price suddenly. YOu can still get old used ones at the fair price about half of what you need to get a new one. Then you have the odd case of Gerundino where it went down in value after he dies...I still don't understand that. (Perhaps in my small circle only, but I saw them going for 10,000 for several years then got dropped down to 8k and even less since his death.).
Most makers that establish a reputation end up having a waiting list for A models, if they work legitimately alone. Some big names already close that list as they build guitars at price X for the rest of their working lives, yet any used versions therefore instantly cost X and can go as far up 3X (in case of Reyes just a few years ago). New builders with open wait lists necessarily keep the prices reasonable for the sake of establishing a good reputation. That means they hope that they get more and more people on the list plus see their used instruments going for something close to or ideally ABOVE the price they charged orginally. After 10 years of this the luthier should have an idea where they stand in the market.
What it means to a buyer: The seller of a used guitar is trying to keep the market UP and fishing for more and more for the instrument that was bought cheaper (A model instruments). So the buyer has an obligation to respect that, know the market well enough to counter offer a fair (non insulting) lower price in hopes a middle ground is met, that both keeps the maker at its reputation level, and the buyer knows he is not getting ripped off.
Ricardo
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Jan. 31 2013 16:53:00
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mlau
Posts: 12
Joined: Jan. 26 2013
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RE: How does the business of selling... (in reply to mlau)
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quote:
Wow! So many responses when I was out interviewing for work!
1. Stephen, I'm glad to hear that you're alive!
Dr. Lin is the guy that got me into dentistry (I was dead-set on getting an MD previously). After seeing hundreds dentists, I'd still say that he's a pretty good one. He's GREAT at extractions, and is a kind guy.
There are a couple dentists that love guitars...one is my periodontist (I'm building a OOO short-scale); one is Dr. Subido in Larkspur (I'm thinking of a crossover guitar for his wedding present).
I'm not sure that they'd barter work for a guitar though, their wife would kill them!
2. RE: dental tools
Just ask your dentist. Seriously. The better ones are conscientious about the quality of our tools and will occasionally take some out of circulation. Scalers are good, but burs, hatchets and hoes (think 1mm angled chisels) are far more useful.
3. Currently, I'm building a classical guitar under a guy with a ridiculously good reputation in the international circle. He is a proud builder of the old tradition, and learned under Overholtz. However, his guitars are underpriced, and he has horrible business sense.
Most of the time, people's reaction when they hear his name is "he's still alive? Why isn't he more famous/expensive/etc?"
It's frustrating to see him struggle financially when he should be happily retired if he was in any other industry.
-Matt
ps. If you're seriously thinking of dentistry, PM me. I can tell you what not to do, what to expect, and how to get there.
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Date Feb. 7 2013 6:23:58
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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RE: How does the business of selling... (in reply to mlau)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mlau
quote:
Wow! So many responses when I was out interviewing for work!
3. Currently, I'm building a classical guitar under a guy with a ridiculously good reputation in the international circle. He is a proud builder of the old tradition, and learned under Overholtzer.
However, his guitars are under priced, and he has horrible business sense. Most of the time, people's reaction when they hear his name is "he's still alive? Why isn't he more famous/expensive/etc?"
It's frustrating to see him struggle financially when he should be happily retired if he was in any other industry.
-Matt
Matt,
When I first went back into building guitars in 1974, I tried to compete with the Japanese prices. I sold guitars but that was not a good way to pay my shop bills and have food on the table, so I got the idea that I would build the guitars as best I could and then charge what I needed to make a living, barely, so that worked for awhile and things started getting better.
And I can tell you that in the early years I was alone in my shop with no outside influence to keep me company and this taught me a lot of patience. Also, for me, it was a faith builder in believing that things would ultimately get better, the longer I tried to produce good art.
And when I finally got my building hands to a point that I could send my guitars out of state, I contacted GSI in California and they took one of my guitars and advertised the heck out it and that was the start of my reputation, which went viral for about 15 years as one of their exclusives.
However, there are a few ways to advertise guitars. Bob Ruck was in a good place to sell his guitars as he placed one with a very good classical guitarist, and that guitarist traveled and did a very good job demonstrating Bob's work.
And then Bob used a comfortable pricing for his guitars with options for higher pricing. It worked very well for him and he understood the mechanics of how to sell guitars at an affordable price, then add to it his higher priced instruments, which added more income. But I think the bottom line to his success was that he kept his basic instrument prices affordable and used the option tool to add to it; like higher priced tuning machines, and cases, etc.
And he went in the direction of using a very well known artist to endorse his work, and kept his work consistent with his building practice, not trying to take on too much in the way of managing a higher volume with different designs but keeping close to a design that was being advertised.
So, I think that trying to be a guitar maker who tries to be all things to all people will either be organized enough to build his business or suffer for building in so many directions that his art doesn't fly with most buyers due to the differences in his work. Most of the guitar buying market wants a guitar just like their peers play, and if this is consistent with a builder, then this information will ultimately get out, as his signature for what he builds, and it will add to his income.
_____________________________
Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
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Date Feb. 7 2013 12:09:08
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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RE: How does the business of selling... (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
However, there are a few ways to advertise guitars. Bob Ruck was in a good place to sell his guitars as he placed one with a very good classical guitarist, and that guitarist traveled and did a very good job demonstrating Bob's work.
His guitars are actually very good too IMO. The ones I tried anyway, it was understandable why at the time of meeting him, his list was closed, or 6 years or something I consider ridiculous.  Brune is another guy. Waiting list seems to equal success, and I think it is mainly based on word of mouth by players.
Well, the fact that both Brune and Ruck build very good guitars goes without question.
And the wait list can be an indicator but rarely any wait list past 2 years happens without some drop offs, as a longer wait list can become wish lists due to time constraints, or in some cases until another popular builder comes on the scene.
This has been my experience and I'm sure Brune and Ruck have experienced similar results, as this is the rule of most any builder with a wait list.
And many economically well healed buyers are now too old to make an investment that they may not be able to enjoy in 6 to 8 years.
So, in cases like this, shorter wait lists have appeal.
But then for younger buyers, this ideal works, as they have time to save their money, and if they can't make the buy at the time the guitar is ready, then they have a chance to sell their place in line to a buyer who would pay extra, by not having to wait so long.
_____________________________
Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
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Date Feb. 7 2013 15:19:12
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