RE: nino de pura

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RE: nino de pura

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Mark2

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: nino de pura (in reply to Doitsujin)

I vote for the second one.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2005 16:09:10

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: nino de pura (in reply to Mark2)

I vote for both

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2005 16:11:57

Mark2

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: nino de pura (in reply to Florian)

Good point-they are both amazing.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2005 16:18:16

flamenco_9

Posts: 214
Joined: Jan. 15 2004

RE: nino de pura (in reply to ivan)

hiii guys
I listened to both clips of pura and cortes
if you notice there are alot of legato in the pura's picado but in cortes picado I notice no legato...well that what makes you feel there are differences..well the is a piont should be taken not the whole thing.
for me paco has the fine and most beatiful picado....look in his aggressive ones compare it with sabicas ones...it is more round as you like to express and in his round ones it is more beautifull than classic players...this man has a unique touch and sensetivity of the notes.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2005 16:26:02

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: nino de pura (in reply to flamenco_9)

Hmmm....if I met the Devil at the crossroads and could only choose the gift of one...then it would have to be the second!
de Pura's is nice, but Cortes' is más flamenco IMO.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2005 16:50:04

Guest

RE: nino de pura (in reply to ivan)

I agree with you Mr.Boyes. The first one sounds like very nuevo flamenco e.j. Ottmar Liebert style whereas the second has that flamenco "cutting" sound that sounds so exotic. I guess it all boils down to taste, I think the second one is way more representative of what the earthy gitano style flamenco picado sounds like vs the Flamenco sounding melodic stuff.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2005 16:56:12

ivan

Posts: 73
Joined: Oct. 6 2005

RE: nino de pura (in reply to Mark2)

Hey guys,
Thanks for the useful info. I am glad that my thread started an interesting discussion. I tried to do this in other forums (mainly the classical forum-borneo), but they are boring. It is best to share w/ my flamenco brothers.

Ivan

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2005 17:07:40

ivan

Posts: 73
Joined: Oct. 6 2005

RE: nino de pura (in reply to Doitsujin)

I don't know.. but I love the aggressive picado. The nature of our instrument makes it so that it is really difficult to play fast scales like the piano for example, where it is a bit easier to play fast. So if you can play really fast on the guitar with control..then do it. I love Daniel's playing bacause it is so freaking aggressive. Like he is saying, " I am a beast".. IMO, that is what I love about his playing, his overuse of it, I love it. 2 other players that I met while visiting Mariano Conde in Madrid last summer is el viejin and Canizares. 2 other Monsters!!! The interesting thing about Canizares' playing scales is that if you sit next to him and watch him closely, his right hand is so relaxed and effortless, that it almost looks like he is not playing at all but gets so much power. El viejin, is a total gentleman and one of the finest musician-guitarists I've ever seen.

Ivan

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2005 17:24:24

Guest

RE: nino de pura (in reply to Mark2)

Ivan,

That is so cool you met Cañizares, I think his playing is very avant garde for lack of a better term. I have only heard a handful of his music,some of it Flamenco some of it not and the Flamenco stuff was just out there but I liked it and appreciated it's originality. One example, La Pajarraca (Bulerías), to me that Bulerias is very original, and just outside the usual molde but at the same time it's a full pledged Buleria, I don't know if it's the compas or what. Could you see how much of the finger tips he would use to play the picado? The tips of the fingers is such a small place I know but did you notice anything about it?

'tal Luego

German

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2005 17:40:48

ivan

Posts: 73
Joined: Oct. 6 2005

RE: nino de pura (in reply to Mark2)

German,

I am not too sure but I think he used as little movement as possible from the fingertips. I noticed that he economized movement all throughout. Whereas El Viejin's movements and power seemed to be coming from his knuckles. it is so interesting to watch these famous virtuosos, that get this huge sound and power from their playing, but yet have such different mechanics in their playing. Like Vicente Amigo's right hand for example. It is so unorthodox, with the right hand pinky sticking out and he hacks all the notes, but if you ever see him live or, he is one of the cleanest and precise players I've ever seen. Such different approaches, but all are incredible.

Ivan

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2005 17:53:53

Guest

RE: nino de pura (in reply to Mark2)

Ivan,

Thanks for the response. I know this is going to sound absurd but by chance did your picado improve at all after watching them? I swear after I watch videos of Paco,Ramon Algeciras,Gerardo Nunez, Rafa Riqueni my picado improves a bit. I maybe inventing this in my mind but I really think I do. Am I strange to think this?

Saludos

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2005 18:04:54

ivan

Posts: 73
Joined: Oct. 6 2005

RE: nino de pura (in reply to Mark2)

German,

I don't think you are crazy for thinking that. I agree. After, watching players like that, you always learn something new or they can see something that you are not seeing ( as objective observers), they can give you a piece of advice. If you watch videos of these players, maybe you are forcing yourself to be more observant and as result, do not repeat the same mechanical mistakes we often do. Their advice was always economize movement, alternate, and keep you nails in check. do not make file them too round, as this would give you a thinnner sound and do not keep them too long. If your nails are off by a few millimeters. they can prevent you from executing an optimal picado. Not that you won't be able to do it, but it can certainly slow you down a bit. These players keep a more square shape to their nails. I tried it and it worked for me. Because you have more nail at the angle of attack, the sound is fatter. Whtever works. (:

Ivan

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2005 18:24:07

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: nino de pura (in reply to Doitsujin)

Cortes sounds more flamenco to me.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2005 18:29:28

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: nino de pura (in reply to Mark2)

No your not srange thinking. When I see a very good player, it pushes me and I have more fun to train to become as good as this player. So when you are inspired, you train more and you get better. And mental training ist false. Some F1-pilots drive the whole parcour in their imagination before the race. You control your fingers with your head. When you seriously imaginate every movement of your fingers for a longer period of time and not only once, it could make you better. ..maybe.

And to the picados.. I saw like many of you, many different technics of playing picado perfectly.. I think its like Gerardo said on his video. There is not "one perfect holding" or way of moving the fingers to get a good picado. It demends on your hand-anatomy how you should play it. It maybe looks crap, but is sounds very good.

He met Viejin and Canizares...

You are lucky.

And to the picados.. Yes Cortes sounds 100% flamenco hes a monster, too. And yes Nino de pura sounds not traditional..he sounds very modern. Yeaahh!

Both are amazing.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2005 18:29:54

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: nino de pura (in reply to Mark2)

16ths at 240bpm? I can hit that actually. :)

Picado= Paco stomps on everybody as far as im concerned.

Nobody as powerful and clean. Though G.Maya has some nasty
technique on him.

TK

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2005 18:32:29

ivan

Posts: 73
Joined: Oct. 6 2005

RE: nino de pura (in reply to Mark2)

Todd,

we all know you can hit the 16ths at 240 maybe 270. I think you and Grisha are guitar genuises.

Ivan

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2005 18:38:40

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: nino de pura (in reply to Mark2)

Well, the thing is, one would never really need
to go that fast.

I like to practice alegrias @ 210, cause then 180 seems like cake. :)

TK

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2005 18:42:16

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: nino de pura (in reply to ivan)

quote:

we all know you can hit the 16ths at 240 maybe 270. I think you and Grisha are guitar genuises.

Is that the definition, surely not? What happened to feeling, expression, ahh and duende? Sorry guys but I'm leaving town while you 240's slug it out

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2005 19:38:16

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: nino de pura (in reply to Mark2)

Expression? Duende?

Never heard of em!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2005 20:27:07

Guest

RE: nino de pura (in reply to Mark2)

16ths at 270 IS expression [turning off the macho mode...]

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2005 20:36:52

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: nino de pura (in reply to Mark2)

post above is mine...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2005 20:37:55

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: nino de pura (in reply to Doitsujin)

quote:

And mental training ist false. Some F1-pilots drive the whole parcour in their imagination before the race. You control your fingers with your head. When you seriously imaginate every movement of your fingers for a longer period of time and not only once, it could make you better. ..maybe.

Great statement Doit!
If the thing isn't in your head, it will never come out in the fingers.

To digress slighty, (as I always do...

)

In fact after all this time waiting, I happened to catch Paco de Lucia on a night where he wasn't interested.
When he first started, I couldn't believe that this amazing PdL who I've heard all my life could play so weak and sloppy!
Even at the end of the concert when he should have been really warmed up...his fast picados were not accurate, missing and fluffing notes and everything.
And I'm not being over-critical here....
If he had sounded like Rafael Cortes then I'd have left possibly a happy man!

I supposed I was more gobsmacked than disappointed....

Thing is...nothing is a negative experience...
It just taught me that Paco was not in the mood and couldn't do it.
So therefore I understand that folk "are" human and not superhuman.
But I really couldn't believe that this was the PdL I've heard all my life.
There was no Paco "tone" ....nothing!.
It could have been someone else pretending to be Paco.
That's how bad it was!!

Still, I put on his earlier albums since then....and goddammit....he's still my favourite player of all time....both composition and execution.

He Da Man!

It's a complicated world!

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2005 20:45:09

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: nino de pura (in reply to ToddK)

quote:

Duende?

it´s meeee! LOL!!!

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This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2005 20:47:36

Ricardo

Posts: 14845
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: nino de pura (in reply to Mark2)

I can do it at 241 bpm, for at least ONE beat longer than you guys.

Seriously, those guys running scales wish they were Paco. In fact I am sure that is who inspires them. But the thing is, even though they can go as fast, the SOUND is different. I can tell the difference between Pura, Canizares, Amigo, Nunez, Chicuelo, etc all great players, but when I hear the picado, I can tell if it is Paco or not. He really has amazing control. The truth is, he is simply better. He feels EVERYNOTE just right, it is amazing. Even just a scale up and down sounds special. The only one that comes close to his sound is his nephew Jose Maria Banderas, IMO (from everyone I have heard so far). In fact his playing really shocked me.
How could anyone think those sound clip examples, are even comparable to Paco? They sound like students next to Paco. (As far as picado goes). The best guitarists of the Post Paco generation are important because they have their own style, sound, rhythmic ideas etc. But no one has really evolved more technique skill and control than Paco.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2005 21:19:59