RE: nino de pura (Full Version)

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Mark2 -> RE: nino de pura (Oct. 13 2005 16:09:10)

I vote for the second one.



Florian -> RE: nino de pura (Oct. 13 2005 16:11:57)

I vote for both



Mark2 -> RE: nino de pura (Oct. 13 2005 16:18:16)

Good point-they are both amazing.



flamenco_9 -> RE: nino de pura (Oct. 13 2005 16:26:02)

hiii guys
I listened to both clips of pura and cortes
if you notice there are alot of legato in the pura's picado but in cortes picado I notice no legato...well that what makes you feel there are differences..well the is a piont should be taken not the whole thing.
for me paco has the fine and most beatiful picado....look in his aggressive ones compare it with sabicas ones...it is more round as you like to express and in his round ones it is more beautifull than classic players...this man has a unique touch and sensetivity of the notes.



Ron.M -> RE: nino de pura (Oct. 13 2005 16:50:04)

Hmmm....if I met the Devil at the crossroads and could only choose the gift of one...then it would have to be the second!
de Pura's is nice, but Cortes' is más flamenco IMO.



Guest -> RE: nino de pura (Oct. 13 2005 16:56:12)

I agree with you Mr.Boyes. The first one sounds like very nuevo flamenco e.j. Ottmar Liebert style whereas the second has that flamenco "cutting" sound that sounds so exotic. I guess it all boils down to taste, I think the second one is way more representative of what the earthy gitano style flamenco picado sounds like vs the Flamenco sounding melodic stuff.



ivan -> RE: nino de pura (Oct. 13 2005 17:07:40)

Hey guys,
Thanks for the useful info. I am glad that my thread started an interesting discussion. I tried to do this in other forums (mainly the classical forum-borneo), but they are boring. It is best to share w/ my flamenco brothers.

Ivan



ivan -> RE: nino de pura (Oct. 13 2005 17:24:24)

I don't know.. but I love the aggressive picado. The nature of our instrument makes it so that it is really difficult to play fast scales like the piano for example, where it is a bit easier to play fast. So if you can play really fast on the guitar with control..then do it. I love Daniel's playing bacause it is so freaking aggressive. Like he is saying, " I am a beast".. IMO, that is what I love about his playing, his overuse of it, I love it. 2 other players that I met while visiting Mariano Conde in Madrid last summer is el viejin and Canizares. 2 other Monsters!!! The interesting thing about Canizares' playing scales is that if you sit next to him and watch him closely, his right hand is so relaxed and effortless, that it almost looks like he is not playing at all but gets so much power. El viejin, is a total gentleman and one of the finest musician-guitarists I've ever seen.

Ivan



Guest -> RE: nino de pura (Oct. 13 2005 17:40:48)

Ivan,

That is so cool you met Cañizares, I think his playing is very avant garde for lack of a better term. I have only heard a handful of his music,some of it Flamenco some of it not and the Flamenco stuff was just out there but I liked it and appreciated it's originality. One example, La Pajarraca (Bulerías), to me that Bulerias is very original, and just outside the usual molde but at the same time it's a full pledged Buleria, I don't know if it's the compas or what. Could you see how much of the finger tips he would use to play the picado? The tips of the fingers is such a small place I know but did you notice anything about it?

'tal Luego

German



ivan -> RE: nino de pura (Oct. 13 2005 17:53:53)

German,

I am not too sure but I think he used as little movement as possible from the fingertips. I noticed that he economized movement all throughout. Whereas El Viejin's movements and power seemed to be coming from his knuckles. it is so interesting to watch these famous virtuosos, that get this huge sound and power from their playing, but yet have such different mechanics in their playing. Like Vicente Amigo's right hand for example. It is so unorthodox, with the right hand pinky sticking out and he hacks all the notes, but if you ever see him live or, he is one of the cleanest and precise players I've ever seen. Such different approaches, but all are incredible.

Ivan



Guest -> RE: nino de pura (Oct. 13 2005 18:04:54)

Ivan,

Thanks for the response. I know this is going to sound absurd but by chance did your picado improve at all after watching them? I swear after I watch videos of Paco,Ramon Algeciras,Gerardo Nunez, Rafa Riqueni my picado improves a bit. I maybe inventing this in my mind but I really think I do. Am I strange to think this?

Saludos



ivan -> RE: nino de pura (Oct. 13 2005 18:24:07)

German,

I don't think you are crazy for thinking that. I agree. After, watching players like that, you always learn something new or they can see something that you are not seeing ( as objective observers), they can give you a piece of advice. If you watch videos of these players, maybe you are forcing yourself to be more observant and as result, do not repeat the same mechanical mistakes we often do. Their advice was always economize movement, alternate, and keep you nails in check. do not make file them too round, as this would give you a thinnner sound and do not keep them too long. If your nails are off by a few millimeters. they can prevent you from executing an optimal picado. Not that you won't be able to do it, but it can certainly slow you down a bit. These players keep a more square shape to their nails. I tried it and it worked for me. Because you have more nail at the angle of attack, the sound is fatter. Whtever works. (:

Ivan



Miguel de Maria -> RE: nino de pura (Oct. 13 2005 18:29:28)

Cortes sounds more flamenco to me.



Doitsujin -> RE: nino de pura (Oct. 13 2005 18:29:54)

No your not srange thinking. When I see a very good player, it pushes me and I have more fun to train to become as good as this player. So when you are inspired, you train more and you get better. And mental training ist false. Some F1-pilots drive the whole parcour in their imagination before the race. You control your fingers with your head. When you seriously imaginate every movement of your fingers for a longer period of time and not only once, it could make you better. ..maybe.

And to the picados.. I saw like many of you, many different technics of playing picado perfectly.. I think its like Gerardo said on his video. There is not "one perfect holding" or way of moving the fingers to get a good picado. It demends on your hand-anatomy how you should play it. It maybe looks crap, but is sounds very good.

He met Viejin and Canizares...[:-] You are lucky.

And to the picados.. Yes Cortes sounds 100% flamenco hes a monster, too. And yes Nino de pura sounds not traditional..he sounds very modern. Yeaahh! [8D] Both are amazing.



ToddK -> RE: nino de pura (Oct. 13 2005 18:32:29)

16ths at 240bpm? I can hit that actually. :)


Picado= Paco stomps on everybody as far as im concerned.

Nobody as powerful and clean. Though G.Maya has some nasty
technique on him.

TK



ivan -> RE: nino de pura (Oct. 13 2005 18:38:40)

Todd,

we all know you can hit the 16ths at 240 maybe 270. I think you and Grisha are guitar genuises.

Ivan



ToddK -> RE: nino de pura (Oct. 13 2005 18:42:16)

Well, the thing is, one would never really need
to go that fast.

I like to practice alegrias @ 210, cause then 180 seems like cake. :)

TK



Escribano -> RE: nino de pura (Oct. 13 2005 19:38:16)

quote:

we all know you can hit the 16ths at 240 maybe 270. I think you and Grisha are guitar genuises.


Is that the definition, surely not? What happened to feeling, expression, ahh and duende? Sorry guys but I'm leaving town while you 240's slug it out[:D]



ToddK -> RE: nino de pura (Oct. 13 2005 20:27:07)

Expression? Duende?

Never heard of em! [8D]



Guest -> RE: nino de pura (Oct. 13 2005 20:36:52)

16ths at 270 IS expression [turning off the macho mode...]



XXX -> RE: nino de pura (Oct. 13 2005 20:37:55)

[8D]
post above is mine...



Ron.M -> RE: nino de pura (Oct. 13 2005 20:45:09)

quote:

And mental training ist false. Some F1-pilots drive the whole parcour in their imagination before the race. You control your fingers with your head. When you seriously imaginate every movement of your fingers for a longer period of time and not only once, it could make you better. ..maybe.


Great statement Doit!
If the thing isn't in your head, it will never come out in the fingers.

To digress slighty, (as I always do...[:D] )

In fact after all this time waiting, I happened to catch Paco de Lucia on a night where he wasn't interested.
When he first started, I couldn't believe that this amazing PdL who I've heard all my life could play so weak and sloppy!
Even at the end of the concert when he should have been really warmed up...his fast picados were not accurate, missing and fluffing notes and everything.
And I'm not being over-critical here....
If he had sounded like Rafael Cortes then I'd have left possibly a happy man!

I supposed I was more gobsmacked than disappointed....

Thing is...nothing is a negative experience...
It just taught me that Paco was not in the mood and couldn't do it.
So therefore I understand that folk "are" human and not superhuman.
But I really couldn't believe that this was the PdL I've heard all my life.
There was no Paco "tone" ....nothing!.
It could have been someone else pretending to be Paco.
That's how bad it was!!

Still, I put on his earlier albums since then....and goddammit....he's still my favourite player of all time....both composition and execution.

He Da Man! [:D]

It's a complicated world!

cheers

Ron



duende -> RE: nino de pura (Oct. 13 2005 20:47:36)

quote:

Duende?
it´s meeee! LOL!!![8D]



Ricardo -> RE: nino de pura (Oct. 13 2005 21:19:59)

I can do it at 241 bpm, for at least ONE beat longer than you guys.[8D]

Seriously, those guys running scales wish they were Paco. In fact I am sure that is who inspires them. But the thing is, even though they can go as fast, the SOUND is different. I can tell the difference between Pura, Canizares, Amigo, Nunez, Chicuelo, etc all great players, but when I hear the picado, I can tell if it is Paco or not. He really has amazing control. The truth is, he is simply better. He feels EVERYNOTE just right, it is amazing. Even just a scale up and down sounds special. The only one that comes close to his sound is his nephew Jose Maria Banderas, IMO (from everyone I have heard so far). In fact his playing really shocked me.
How could anyone think those sound clip examples, are even comparable to Paco? They sound like students next to Paco. (As far as picado goes). The best guitarists of the Post Paco generation are important because they have their own style, sound, rhythmic ideas etc. But no one has really evolved more technique skill and control than Paco.

Ricardo



koella -> RE: nino de pura (Oct. 13 2005 21:44:04)

Way to go Ricardo!!

I sure would like to see what nunez, pura etc. would say when they read this discussion. [;)]



Doitsujin -> RE: nino de pura (Oct. 13 2005 21:54:53)

Wasnt here a paco shrine?? Just some seconds ago?



koella -> [Deleted] (Oct. 13 2005 21:56:46)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Oct. 13 2005 21:57:11



koella -> RE: nino de pura (Oct. 13 2005 22:00:30)

Yes Paco is God[:)]



koella -> RE: nino de pura (Oct. 13 2005 22:02:36)

Is it the drugs or the german beer, Doijtsiun?[:D]



Guest -> RE: nino de pura (Oct. 13 2005 22:09:31)

Just strange humor.... ehh really strange unique humor. [&:] I didnt find a person in my whole life who understands it... Hey thats a good base. All geniuses are strange.. arent they? ^^



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