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RE: Thoughts on Technique and Some Issues
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Blondie#2
Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 14 2010
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 RE: Thoughts on Technique and Some I... (in reply to Elie)
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quote:
so what do you think about the rubber band ?
using the rubber band around the ring and the pinky to prevent the pinky from sticking out make my hand super relaxed during i-m picado
Mark makes a good point. IMO it comes down to what your fingers are doing (just going on your description here, haven't seen a video and don't now what you actually feel. For one thing it may not even be a big problem, seen Vicente's fingers?) and HOW you incorporate things like this.
For instance, if you just put on the band tightly and play away, flexing and straining against it, not good idea. But what if you use something that lightly holds A-C, (or even M-A-C) together, just to enable you feel that contact and train them to relax and move together? ..and then try without the band, feeling the contact between A and C as a guide to help you train C to relax?
So this kind of thing can be used as a tool, yes. Splints and braces are actually part of one form of treatment for FD called Constraint Induced movement therapy, though it has had limited long term success. For fingers curling inwards (like your M) I used to use a cotton reel as a support for the finger to hold to prevent it flexing all the way into the hand, enabling me to work on other fingers first.
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today i had a better feeling about the curling middle finger and then I started playing some pieces in a better shape but then suddenly something happened and brought back the curling and the awkward feeling
One of the first things you have to do is put current repertoire to one side to retrain. Yep, that's tedious and hard to do but the FD movements are ingrained and programmed in, they become part of the program you hands follow to play that material.
Retrain using simple exercises, gradually incorporate NEW, simple material (not VL concert studies) and only when sorted go back to your old material.
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so blondie you do have great info about the issue
did you face this problem before (if so hope you totally recovered)? or are you a doctor ?
Not a doctor. I had FD for eight years before I found the path back and it took about a couple of years to sort it out. If I knew then what I know now, I would have recovered much earlier. I did much reading on the subject, talked to people who had recovered, and saw one of the UK's specialists in the condition
Difficult to answer the question 'fully recovered' due the the level I was at when I got FD, and where i am now. In some ways I am playing at a higher level - my flamenco tremolo is better than it has ever been and yesterday I hit 160 for quarter note picado open string bursts, a massive increase in speed for me. Arpeggios are at last feeling good.
I kept a spreadsheet showing my baseline speed for all finger combos, and plotted my speeds as I recovered it helped keep me sane and see progres over months/years. This time five years ago my IM picado speed was 69, ONE note per click.
But yes there are still tensions in my hand, especially if i try and push things.
This thing is like trying to get air out of an air bed, you push down on one bit and air comes out, but some air moves and pops up elsewhere.
But is that still FD or now would we say tension problems? I think most would say the latter if they looked at my hand, but this is a grey area - where do tensions problems end and FD begin?
It takes real commitment to to recover if you do have FD, but it is certainly possible.
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Date Dec. 15 2012 8:38:56
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Blondie#2
Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 14 2010
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RE: Thoughts on Technique and Some I... (in reply to Elie)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Elie
quote:
put current repertoire to one side to retrain
Blondie that would literally destroy me as a musician don't you think ?
what if I practice slowly just to keep the pieces in my head and not to forget everything i know
This is tough, believe me, I've been there. This is the reason so many pros who get FD simply give up, it becomes too much to ask of yourself not to mention financial implications.
All I can do is warn you, but it is your decision. Keep playing your old rep you are putting your recovery on hold, at best. At worst your condition may deteriorate - you already have two unwanted contractions (pinky sticking out and flexion of M into palm). Your brain will try and resist these unwanted contractions (adding tension) and try harder to approximate the movements it cannot make as I said before. That is how this thing grows and gets more complicated to unravel, like a chain reaction. That's how people end up with contorted hands that can't play anything like in the youtube videos.
You cannot separate your technique from the music you are playing with it, it is bound together.
To keep playing, I used the same approach as Leisner, playing with just I and P with M and A held in palm. I re-learned easy repertoire this way and did this for years, gigging too and even accompanying dance classes. I was never completely satisfied though. You could do something like this or maybe even use a pick if you are playing in a duo?
If you are worried about forgetting music, play through pieces in your head, visualising everything. Clearly see your hands playing very note, with ease and without tension. You will probably even be able to play 'air guitar' and run through the pieces without your guitar without FD problems. This kind of practice will be good for you anyhow.
Tough choices, I know.
I know what you mean about the trust thing and playing IM . The point is, can you do it without tension at any speed? Put metronome at 60, can you play two notes per click and keep going? Check your hand in a mirror.
If you can, at whatever speed is necessary, you have the basis to rebuild and the basis to rebuild your trust in your fingers too, but it is one step at a time. You cannot rush this and you cannot push it. You have to 'allow' your fingers to move correctly not 'make' them. That's a really difficult idea to convey clearly, but for me it was a very important one.
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Date Dec. 16 2012 9:11:00
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Elie
Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010
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RE: Thoughts on Technique and Some I... (in reply to Elie)
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quote:
Keep playing your old rep you are putting your recovery on hold, at best. At worst your condition may deteriorate - you already have two unwanted contractions (pinky sticking out and flexion of M into palm).
quote:
You cannot separate your technique from the music you are playing with it, it is bound together.
I totally agree with you and understand what you mean. but I just want you to bare with me little bit
the point is what if I play the pieces half or less the speed without triggering any focal movements ? I mean as i mentioned my hand at slow speeds is in good form no sticking out pinky or flexing middle finger
I feel its an opportunity to train my hands slowly , clean the pieces , strengthen the compas
i sure want to recover .. and if playing slowly will deteriorate my condition also, i will quit that ... but i felt it might help
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I know what you mean about the trust thing and playing IM . The point is, can you do it without tension at any speed? Put metronome at 60, can you play two notes per click and keep going? Check your hand in a mirror.
yes i have my web cam on now checking my hand and yes i can play up to four notes at 60 with stable relaxed pinky
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You have to 'allow' your fingers to move correctly not 'make' them. That's a really difficult idea to convey clearly, but for me it was a very important one.
I 100% understand what you mean .. i feel it , no force just go natural
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I would work on A by alternating A-C, A-M, and P-A. free stroke, open strings, at speeds with no tension. Try I-A free stroke to.
 glad to hear that as im already practicing these sets of fingers both tirando and appoyando
and a funny thing is that i can maintain picados with a relaxed hand using I-C better than I-M , that makes me aware of the problem more and more
quote:
See how you get on. If you are interested, in the new year we could do a lesson via Skype.
thank you for your kindness i would appreciate that i will stay in touch with you , and happy new year in advance
I was thinking about how mean the brain is (as we are talking about brain conditions), when I play a piece and concentrate in every note , sometimes i find my self forgetting a passage or lets say a part of a falseta , then if I repeat that while keeping my brain busy or occupied with something like reading or watching while playing ... i find my self able to play that forgotten passage
is it that the brain fighting with the muscle memory or is it just me having a weird brain
thank you for your time Blondie
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Date Dec. 17 2012 15:22:45
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Pingaloka
Posts: 42
Joined: Jun. 9 2011
From: Granada, España
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RE: Thoughts on Technique and Some I... (in reply to Elie)
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quote:
I was thinking about how mean the brain is (as we are talking about brain conditions), when I play a piece and concentrate in every note , sometimes i find my self forgetting a passage or lets say a part of a falseta , then if I repeat that while keeping my brain busy or occupied with something like reading or watching while playing ... i find my self able to play that forgotten passage
Hello Elie, I once red in a book written by a famous scientific here in Spain, that when we have an automated process, it is better that the rational brain does not interfere with it.
So, if you already know a falseta, the best you can do it is put your heart on it, and concentrate on playing well, not thinking on the notes you must actually play. Or what is comming next....
This is a sort of anticipated anxiaty, and it has a lot to do with "living the present." as a sort of oriental, spiritual current.
From my point of view, Focal Dystonia is a sympton, eg. our finger, is a sign, that something is wrong with our approach to the instrument. And as anything we do is not isolated, I think that Dystonia is an opportunity to stop, and start going deep into yourself, open doors, investigate....how is it that your patterns of thinking and conditioning affects you, and therefore the instrument?
It is indeed not easy, I tell you, I know what you are going through.... but think.... if you take this with intelligence, patience, careness, and with persistence you will learn a lot about yourself, truly.
As an example, a practical example of what I'm learning from this:
Not to judge our playing, never. How? Do not compare yourself to anyone.
And don't judge if a movement is correct or incorrect, just pay attention to what you want to do.
That's the piece of information you want running from your head to your fingers, any other thoughts, negative or positive, are extra information not needed when you are actually playing. Therefore it can interfere. Imaging you walking to the nearest store and thinking all sorts of stuff about your walking. Comparing yourself to other walkers, thinking that your walk is right, etc.
So, when you start dealing with your dystonia seriously, please be patient. Try not to judge.
Seek information everywhere, don't be afraid of looking straight to the problem.
best of luck!
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Date Dec. 17 2012 18:19:09
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Elie
Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010
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RE: Thoughts on Technique and Some I... (in reply to Elie)
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sorry for the late reply but i was going around and discovering the issue
quote:
start going deep into yourself, open doors, investigate....how is it that your patterns of thinking and conditioning affects you, and therefore the instrument?
Thank you Pingaloka,
actually I think I am already doing that, aware of it or not
I never faced problems with my hands before ... and this issue made me change my thinking about the guitar, my playing and our relation ... I am playing slower and more careful now , and observing my hand most of the time
quote:
It is indeed not easy, I tell you, I know what you are going through.... but think.... if you take this with intelligence, patience, careness, and with persistence you will learn a lot about yourself, truly.
I'm pretty sure of that, because it already affected my thinking about the guitar, my body and life too ... and I am optimistic that i can get back in good shape
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And don't judge if a movement is correct or incorrect, just pay attention to what you want to do.
im not sure i could understand this sentence properly
isn't what caused me this some wrong movements ?
I mean i would never achieve good speed with this sticking out pinky
quote:
That's the piece of information you want running from your head to your fingers, any other thoughts, negative or positive, are extra information not needed when you are actually playing.
very interesting thought , thank you for bringing it up never thought of that before
quote:
So, when you start dealing with your dystonia seriously, please be patient. Try not to judge.
Seek information everywhere, don't be afraid of looking straight to the problem.
Thank you for the advice I feel sometimes that im fed up with this condition , but then I take a breathe and keep my focus on the goal
Thank you Pingaloka and Erik for the thoughts about the rational brain process
about the picado I changed my technique slightly by keeping the A and pinky slightly curved inside (not touching the palm) .. like if im doing a tirando picado , its like learning from scratch but hopefully i will feel better in couple weeks
I am working on arpeggios step by step and involving the pinky in both tremelo and arpeggio because i feel its causing lots of problems
thank you all for your time , thoughts and support
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Date Dec. 20 2012 20:16:13
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Guest
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RE: Thoughts on Technique and Some I... (in reply to Elie)
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Thanks Elie
This has been a most informative and enlightening thread.
Has helped me indentify one specific task involving pim arpeggio/tremelo that has occurred in my playing.....
I appreciate all involved in this discussion
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Date Jan. 8 2013 5:38:09
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