My Francisco Barba has seen better days!

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El_Tortuga

Posts: 258
Joined: Aug. 11 2011
From: Canada

My Francisco Barba has seen better days!

I was traveling from Pacific to Atlantic Canada, and THIS happened:

It is likely due to my forgetting to detune the strings. WestJet has "Door Delivery" which means you can bring your instrument right up to the plane, and they'll hand it right back to you after the flight is over. Or, it could've just been a weak spot in that part of the headstock...

Thankfully I know a guy who can repair it!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2012 16:06:48

Morante

Posts: 2233
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: My Francisco Barba has seen bett... (in reply to El_Tortuga)

Doesn´t look like your fault: more likely a golpe.

It could be glued together but a proper repair would be to find the original glue joint and replace with a new headstock and tapeta. Really a job for Barba, but the airline should pay for it. Good luck!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2012 16:15:31

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: My Francisco Barba has seen bett... (in reply to El_Tortuga)

Ouch! That makes my legs hurt just thinking about it.............

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2012 16:21:38

El_Tortuga

Posts: 258
Joined: Aug. 11 2011
From: Canada

RE: My Francisco Barba has seen bett... (in reply to El_Tortuga)

This is my first and still favorite guitar, I bought it in 1997. My guy Ned Milburn will be able to repair it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2012 16:26:02

xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1935
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: My Francisco Barba has seen bett... (in reply to El_Tortuga)

that looks awful...it makes me wonder, it can surely be glued together, but will it be able to handle the tension long term?

there must be something done against airlines constantly breaking instruments, it makes me think those workers are doing it on purpose...(even if you give it to them at the door, there's no stopping them throwing it forcefully in the back when you're not around anymore)
there is no way in hell i'm ever letting them touch my guitar...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2012 16:31:22

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: My Francisco Barba has seen bett... (in reply to El_Tortuga)

I ended up in a big fight with the people at the gate on Iberia from Sevilla to Madrid, I ended up pulling up the portion of their website that says I can bring it aboard and they said that was outdated. The pilot actually overheard and took it in the cabin with him but I was sweating bullets for a minute there.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2012 16:43:49

n85ae

Posts: 877
Joined: Sep. 7 2006

RE: My Francisco Barba has seen bett... (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)

Good glue is stronger than the wood it holds together, this looks horrible
but will be a simple fix.

Regards,
Jeff

quote:

that looks awful...it makes me wonder, it can surely be glued together, but will it be able to handle the tension long term?

there must be something done against airlines constantly breaking instruments, it makes me think those workers are doing it on purpose...(even if you give it to them at the door, there's no stopping them throwing it forcefully in the back when you're not around anymore)
there is no way in hell i'm ever letting them touch my guitar...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2012 16:53:37

koenie17

Posts: 438
Joined: Feb. 25 2011
From: España

RE: My Francisco Barba has seen bett... (in reply to El_Tortuga)

Ouch!!

What did the people from the airline say? Can string tension do this?

Good luck mate, I hope you can get it fixed.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2012 17:21:23

ralexander

Posts: 797
Joined: Jun. 1 2010
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

RE: My Francisco Barba has seen bett... (in reply to El_Tortuga)

OMFG that is freaking awful, Bob!! My heart sunk after reading the thread title but I didn't expect this. I have heard good things about Ned, and was thinking of taking my steel string guitar to him for some setup work. Let us know how it turns out.

I wonder about the possibility of adding some kind of reinforcement internally at the break point ... maybe you could have a couple of small carbon rods added? That might be total overkill, I dunno.

What kind of case is that? Looks like a standard TKL style. If I owned that beauty, I'd consider a custom Calton or Hoffee or something similar. In my experience, these kinds of damages happen because of a less-than-perfect fit where the guitar has been subjected to some kind of external trauma and the force transfers directly to the guitar when it moves inside the case. My friend Don Ross had the neck of one of his Beneteau guitars broken just like this (in a Calton, no less), and Rizsanyi told him it was because the guitar was too loose in the case.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2012 17:35:17

shaun

Posts: 176
Joined: May 11 2012
From: Edmonton, Canada

RE: My Francisco Barba has seen bett... (in reply to Leñador)

Hopefully it can be fixed well and soon. I will be seeing you perform in January!

quote:

I ended up in a big fight with the people at the gate on Iberia from Sevilla to Madrid

Really? Iberia actually insisted that I carry on my guitar. That was just in March.

quote:

I'd consider a custom Calton or Hoffee or something similar

I second that. My Hoffee case is well made, solid, and a perfect fit.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2012 17:54:36

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: My Francisco Barba has seen bett... (in reply to El_Tortuga)

quote:

Really? Iberia actually insisted that I carry on my guitar. That was just in March.

This was just in September, from LA to Madrid no problem, from Madrid to Sevilla no problem, from Madrid to LA no problem. That was the only flight that gave issue and they were all Iberia, my friend had his guitar on his back and they didn't say a word(less visible I guess). I didn't want to rat him out.

Someone mentioned string tension, can it really do that????????

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2012 18:18:56

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3437
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: My Francisco Barba has seen bett... (in reply to El_Tortuga)

I'm really sorry your guitar got damaged. It looks terrible. You must have been really shocked when you saw the damage. Fortunately the repair should be straightforward, and it sounds like you have a repair guy you trust.

My '67 Ramirez blanca has traveled over a million miles as checked baggage on a variety of airlines, with no damage. It has been in an old Mark Leaf case, no longer made. The case weighs a ton and looks terrible. Somewhere along the way it acquired a big dark red stain. I tell people it's blood from the last person who tried to steal it.

Once when checking the guitar at American Airlines in Austin, the agent said, "Nice case. I'm getting my boyfriend one for his birthday."

"Why do you have such a good opinion of it?"

"I worked in baggage for ten years, and never saw an instrument damaged in a case like that."

The case fits the guitar well. One of its great virtues is support for the headstock. It has a slanted cushion under the headstock, and another slanted cushion on the lid of the case that fits over the headstock. I've got other cases that aren't so good in the headstock area, but I always pad the headstock in those cases with a few pairs of socks.

More than one luthier has told me that the most common form of damage to guitars in shipping or checked baggage is the one you illustrate here.

Good luck on the repair. I'm sure it will turn out well.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2012 18:30:13

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: My Francisco Barba has seen bett... (in reply to El_Tortuga)

Shouldn't be to hard to fix.
Just don't contaminate the glue joint with greasy fingers.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2012 19:48:48

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: My Francisco Barba has seen bett... (in reply to El_Tortuga)

Get it fixed as soon as possible and it can be almost invisible. The major problem will be the headplate.

Why... Could the guitar move within the case? Put whatever in there so that it cant move. Taking care of your guitar begins INSIDE the case and thats where its most important.
Also. It looks like the guitars head has a pretty strong angle to the neck. If its so, then they break a lot easyer. Its a compromise between breakangle and strength of the headstock.
Finally. Has it been repaired in the headstock on the bass side? There are some kind of glue or what is it left in the bare wood. Thats what would worry me the most if I was to repair it. If its glue rests, what kind of glue is it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2012 21:09:55

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: My Francisco Barba has seen bett... (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xirdneH_imiJ

there must be something done against airlines constantly breaking instruments, it makes me think those workers are doing it on purpose...(even if you give it to them at the door, there's no stopping them throwing it forcefully in the back when you're not around anymore)
there is no way in hell i'm ever letting them touch my guitar...

I am of the impression too as if baggage guys were specially channeling off their frustration on instrument cases. Could be they like to emphasize a fragile manly being by dismissing musicians as pussies, or so.
What certainly remains is indee dthat they are too commonly damaging instruments since decades and world wide without airport admins feeling tempted to take special action, which in fact should be easy.

However, keeping wages and social contributions low / at the edge of revolts / hence with no reserves to restrict from vandalism, might just be financially more attractive to airport managers and airlines than to prevent customers´reimbursement, which again in most cases will be routingly rejected anyway.

-

The snapping off of headstocks appears to be a typical freight damage to guitars, celli etc. caused by mass moment of inertia, when the headtsock is not supported.

Richard´s case and socks are the right antidote. Crumpled newspaper is good too, as I learned from Frank Ford´s website which is a useful blog anyway.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2012 21:36:55

Escribano

Posts: 6429
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: My Francisco Barba has seen bett... (in reply to Ruphus)

Don't forget using your underwear, clean on the way out... etc.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2012 22:06:49

Ricardo

Posts: 15164
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: My Francisco Barba has seen bett... (in reply to El_Tortuga)

I don't care what the label says. THe guitar is build of sanchis lopez. Same weird head design. My guitar head stock broke twice so far....that's right same exact thing except the veneer faceplate didn't crack and superficially held the head stock on. I played the show with Jason McGuire like that ...he was scared it was gonna fly off and hit him on my right side!

Anyway, it held and had my friend glue it when I got home.

The FIRST time it happened when my friend glued it, he attempt sand and re glue but was shocked to discover the wood was clean...
IT HAD NEVER BEEN GLUED. Rather than a mistake, he felt it was a deliberate design due to the steep angle.

Obviously it's a design flaw if it is intentional. Prepare yourself that it might happen again.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 8 2012 15:21:08

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: My Francisco Barba has seen bett... (in reply to El_Tortuga)

What was it that has never been glued?

When regluing a headstock in this shape, 2 things are very important:
* get it done as fast as possible so that dirt doesnt enter.
* Never sand or file or do anything like that. Just glue.

As I wrote before, my feeling is that the headstock angle is way to steep and this can happen again, because the guitar will be fragile.
This idea with a very steep angle is a sales gimmick. Yes, breakangle is important, but not so important that strength should be a problem.

So this is a Sanchis Barba?? The color, the rosette and the headstock looks like that. Is it signed?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 8 2012 15:33:33

Morante

Posts: 2233
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: My Francisco Barba has seen bett... (in reply to Ricardo)

The head design of a Barba de primera is quite ugly: a sort of castle stuck on top of the head stock.

It always makes me smile to remember a friend whose chulo of a husband sawed off the castle of a Barba headstock, so that it would fit in a case! Because I know Barba, I accompanied her to see if he would fix it (not so very difficult) but he was so offended that he would have nothing to do with it

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 8 2012 16:02:21

Ricardo

Posts: 15164
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: My Francisco Barba has seen bett... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

What was it that has never been glued?

In case this was to me.... the head is cut from the neck and flipped no? Then the diagonal cut is glued together. Then the rosewood thin piece of the face is glued on and across the join of head and neck...no?

ON the sanchis, it appears the head was NOT EVER GLUED to the neck, only the face plate glued on, and the joint on back of neck simply finished over. The first time it became separated I only noticed because of a line that you could feel and see where the finish had cracked along the joint in back of neck.....the head was being held on ONLY by the strings pulling (that would be only the first and 6th strings I imagine as they cleared the joint on the neck side vs the other strings pulling the head forward) and the thin rosewood face plate. YOu could push on the head gently and see inside the joint. NO GLUE or broke or splintered wood, just two clean flat wood surfaces.

You are correct of course that the steep angle has caused the problem of the pressure on the head vs the body in the case caused the separation. Perhaps it would NOT have separated if it had been properly glued .... but after glueing I properly support the guitar in the case at the heel joint. (before the neck did not get any support at heel in case, it was raised there due to head and tuners touching bottom of case).

The reason for the second break, despite the support at heel, was the case fell FORWARD and landed on it's face and caused a reverse whiplash of the headstock. Freak accident as Michael Jackson's bro Jermaine was back stage and bunch of flamenco fans wanted a foto with him and raced forward into photo and knocked my standing case over.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 8 2012 16:42:39

El_Tortuga

Posts: 258
Joined: Aug. 11 2011
From: Canada

RE: My Francisco Barba has seen bett... (in reply to El_Tortuga)

Thanks everyone for your comments and insights, I appreciate it very much.

I'm certain it was a combination of factors: not reinforcing the inside of the (standard) case so there would be no movement, and forgetting to detune the strings, I think that was the biggie. Add to that, a very long time in the air, and you have the "perfect storm". I'm sure being tired made me neglect detuning, because it's something I normally do.

Lesson hard learned! I sure hope the fix lasts a long time, because this is my favorite guitar tone-wise, it has that brilliant attack that Barbas are famous for.

I'm bringing it to Ned tomorrow and will keep you posted.

Calton and Hoffee cases are up around $1000 Canadian. Jeez. Thing is, I have 2 guitars to buy for. The other is a Salvador Castillo.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 8 2012 20:53:20

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: My Francisco Barba has seen bett... (in reply to Morante)

quote:

The head design of a Barba de primera is quite ugly: a sort of castle stuck on top of the head stock.

It always makes me smile to remember a friend whose chulo of a husband sawed off the castle of a Barba headstock, so that it would fit in a case! Because I know Barba, I accompanied her to see if he would fix it (not so very difficult) but he was so offended that he would have nothing to do with it

It made me wonder: ¿What would I think if I was in Barbas situation?

Ricardo, I have difficulty imagining how to glue a head veneer on a scarf joint that hasnt been glued.

Tortuga: I dont think you need one of them expensive cases. If the guitar can move inside, the same thing would have happened. Its not a case fault. A few $€ of foam will secure it next time you fly. Ant this headstock will be fixed and the guitar will work the same.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 9 2012 8:02:35

machopicasso

Posts: 990
Joined: Nov. 27 2010

RE: My Francisco Barba has seen bett... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Freak accident as Michael Jackson's bro Jermaine was back stage and bunch of flamenco fans wanted a foto with him and raced forward into photo and knocked my standing case over.

Jesus, that makes it worse. Was this your HSL 1F Arce?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 9 2012 9:20:02

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: My Francisco Barba has seen bett... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Obviously it's a design flaw if it is intentional. Prepare yourself that it might happen again.

I remember when you first posted about this happening and I still can't see how the head would even hold at all once it's strung up. There's just no way you could overlook this while your building the guitar. I also can't see how this was intentional. They should know better. Perhaps they just used too little glue or too steep a head angle? The steeper the head, the less gluing surface you have. Although having seen several of these you'd probably notice if it had a steeper head angle than normal.

This has always puzzled me. Still does.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 9 2012 12:05:55

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: My Francisco Barba has seen bett... (in reply to Morante)

quote:

but he was so offended that he would have nothing to do with it

Can you blame him? that's kind of insulting. The head design is like his signature. It's like asking someone to change their name. I'd be surprised if any maker agreed to do this to his own guitar.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 9 2012 12:07:34

ralexander

Posts: 797
Joined: Jun. 1 2010
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

RE: My Francisco Barba has seen bett... (in reply to El_Tortuga)

Yeah, the prices on the Caltons and Hoffee type cases are pretty scary. I suggested this thinking the Barba was a primera (sounds like maybe it's not based on some comments here), and that it would be a suitable investment for that kind of guitar. At any rate, as Anders suggests you could at least pimp up your current case with some extra padding and neck support.

Looking forward to your feedback on Ned - good luck!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 9 2012 13:11:25

gemelo

Posts: 88
Joined: Aug. 23 2008

RE: My Francisco Barba has seen bett... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

THe guitar is build of sanchis lopez

I agree, it is easy to recognize. It is a good guitar nevertheless, I miss mine. Good luck with the repair!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 9 2012 14:10:01

El_Tortuga

Posts: 258
Joined: Aug. 11 2011
From: Canada

RE: My Francisco Barba has seen bett... (in reply to El_Tortuga)

This Barba was built in 1997 and shipped directly to me from Sevilla, in case anyone was interested to know.

Ned has the guitar now and it should be ready by Wednesday. He is going to glue the headstock back on and smooth out any cosmetic issues to the best of his ability. The glue is reputed to be "stronger than wood" and he has tested it to verify as much. So, fingers crossed!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2012 18:16:35

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2012 19:03:30

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: My Francisco Barba has seen bett... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

ORIGINAL: nealf
Famous luthiers make more money selling their primeras and thats what they focus on.

Still they dont seem to refrain putting their name as alleged luthier on a guitar that they probably didnt even touch. Pretty gross. Without the brand owner's approval such shabby business would be even considered product piracy, like its done with any other product too. But with the approval it of course becomes a very legit thing *cough, cough*

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2012 19:26:00