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Posts: 51
Joined: Oct. 27 2012
From: Budapest, Hungary
Continuous rasgueo
Hello Guys,
For a long time the all-downstroke continuous rasgueo was something beyond my abilities. In fact, the more I practiced the worse it became. Then something happened, and now its the second simplest thing in the world to me. I'd like to tell you how it happened, so that you can benefit something from it. I hope you will add your ideas to this string concerning rasgueos in general.
I'd been doing all kinds of 3-, 4- and 5-stroke rasgueos for a long time when I decided to try the all- downstroke, continuous rasgueo. I followed Juan Martín's instruction, as I have his brilliant method 'La Guitarra Flamenca'. So I got the video, watched and tried: e-a-m-i e-a-m-i e-a-m-i. It was just impossible to straighten it out.
I'd actually given it up already when, accidentally, I found another very nice flamenco method by Juan Serrano. It struck me immediately that in that method he exceptionally uses the i-e-a-m-(i) rasgueo. First it was strange, a bit difficult, but I started practising it. I soon realized that it's very useful, because it's 4 strokes plus the ending i which is easy to accent. As the first i is accented, too, this rasgueo is often used in a rhythmic way, not in a decorative way. It's nice to have a new 'even-stroke' (i-e-a-m) rasgueo among all those 'odd-stroke' ones (a-m-i, e-a-m-i-i etc.), so I followed the guidance of the book, started working on it, and, in 2 days time ... well, yes, I could do long continuous rasgueos easily. It was just then that I read the text, which indeed told me that I should be able to master the technique that fast.
The way the book teaches it is this: First practice i-e-a-m-i, i-e-a-m-i, i-e-a-m-i. (i-e-a-m are sixteenths and the final i is a quarter note) Both i's are accented. When the sets are reasonably even and straight, bring two sets together: i-e-a-m-i-e-a-m-i, i-e-a-m-i-e-a-m-i (8 sixteenths and a quarter) Remove the accent from the middle i. Next bring three sets together: i-e-a-m-i-e-a-m-i-e-a-m-i, etc. (12 sixteenths and a quarter) Remove the accent from the middle i's.
Practice the sets on the trebles on a chromatically descending-ascending chord sequence (G0 shape), then practice the sets on the basses the same way (E major shape), then practice the sets on the middle strings (A minor shape). Only the first step is a little difficult, but very soon you'll get the hang of it. Once you've mastered i-e-a-m-i nicely there are no limits!
Useful advice: When you practice more sets together concentrate on the index finger. It is pulled back quickly while e strikes the strings. And e is pulled back while i strikes the strings. The whole hand stays half-open, half-closed first. Once you've become comfortable with it, you can try it with a more open hand. Practice it with your thumb on the E string first, but when you've mastered this, you can remove the thumb from the sting, and holding your hand a little above the strings - and your thumb sticking out to one side - strike the strings continuously with the 4 fingers the learnt way. Always remember to take away the stress from the mid-position i strokes.
Once you've mastered the continuous resgueo starting with i-e-a-m-i-e-...., you can try starting it with the little finger (e-a-m-i-...). Amazingly, you'll realize that what was incredible first becomes as easy as anything else. Thanks to Juan Serrano.
Later, whenever you realize that e-a-m-i-... becomes difficult or uneven, go back to i-e-a-m-i-... pattern to straighten it out.
The key to do continuous rolls is sort of what you mention towards the end of your post: doing simultaneous movements with different fingers of the same hand, some flicking out, and some going back in. Here's a quick video.
Thanks for the video. What I wanted to say is that to me it was definitely easier to learn the continuous roll as i-e-a-m units together, not e-a-m-i units. I start - like Juan Serrano - with my index finger! It might work for others, too... Attila
The key to do continuous rolls is sort of what you mention towards the end of your post: doing simultaneous movements with different fingers of the same hand, some flicking out, and some going back in. Here's a quick video.
Wrong rasgueado man. No up strokes.
To attila there is the triplet version same idea, ami,ami,ami only down pretty tough.
These rasgueados are nice becuase of the uniform down stroke sound...but I don't like to think of them as substitutes for other more colorful techniques that make use of up strokes too.
To add, of late I have found one of the most important techniques for rasgueado is this: iup,ami down....rhythmically sounds iam-i so first three notes are a triplet and i down is on the beat.
THis stroke is done so often in flamenco to produce a galloping rhythm for forms such as tangos, fandango, sevillanas, verdiales, etc, but the same issue of delay between i up and a down strokes impedes the speedy learning and smooth fast rhythm required to just get some basics down for beginner students. Interestingly this stroke pattern sets up the continuous roll nicely, forcing the preparations as demoed by Rombsix. Obviously the reverse idea is much easier to grasp for beginners (ami,i up ending). The two together would make a continued roll if both are mastered individually and can be executed fast and smoothly in rhythm.
I never use rasgueados that are all down-strokes. If I am doing rasgueados with the eami or ami fingers, I always do them with an ending up stroke with the i finger (or at least that's what I think I do, now that I am reviewing my technique in my mind). If I want to do triplets, I either use the tresillo (Marote's) or I use iai. I never do rolls using eami-eami-eami, or ami-ami-ami.
Thx for posting attila , I have played ieam rasgeuado's for a long time . The exercise you sugested has tidied mine up a bit thx ( ieami , ieami , ieamieami etc ) . Something i discovered with this style of rasgeuado that works for me is to play eami as , 1 and a 2 ( triplet ) with a golpe on the i stroke . Then try a sixteenth feel ieami ( 1 e and a 2 ) with a golpe on the last stroke . The triplet is a warm up for the sixteenth .
Of course. THat was the point of the initial post...it just read funny you answer with your vid doing a different rasgueado as if your way was THE way to do continued roll. I will admit it's equally strange that guys like Juan Serrano do this only down stroke rasgueado almost exclusively to any other techniques. Point is they should have different applications. Same deal with flicking verses not flicking...it was never supposed be like old vs new, or this is the BETTER way etc....different apps for different sounds.
THis stroke is done so often in flamenco to produce a galloping rhythm for forms such as tangos, fandango, sevillanas, verdiales, etc, but the same issue of delay between i up and a down strokes impedes the speedy learning and smooth fast rhythm required to just get some basics down for beginner students.
It would be nice to see a tutorial sort of vid to understand better how this galop could be done for (let say) verdiales I think I get the how to made the continuous roll with this iam-i pattern, but not how execute it for the galop feel.
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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
Are there any videos available in here, illustrating these variations?
Here's a video to show one aspect of the different uses... I have always played Panaderos using my flicking rasgueados, and it would sound too heavy / bassy for the light, bright, trebly feel that it should sound like. So Ricardo suggested I do non-flicking, and I think it sounds better this way. However, I haven't been practicing my non-flicking rasgueados (or most flamenco guitar to begin with ) recently, so it doesn't sound as good as it should. But I think you get the idea somewhat...
How are you doing that rasgueado, Mezzo? Is it i-up, then ami-down? Or ami-down then i-up? Or neither?
Either way, I think the rhythm you are achieving with this rasgueado is not what Ricardo meant with the i-up, ami-down gallop (and not what I showed of myself doing por tangos). You are doing the four strokes in equal sixteenths. Ricardo was talking about doing the following (for example, por tangos).
compas is as follows X - 2 - 3 - 4 or X & - 2 & - 3 & - 4 &
You would want to do:
X = golpe & of the first beat = i-up, a-down, m-down (as triplet feel) 2 = i-down & - 3 & - 4 & = etcetera
How are you doing that rasgueado, Mezzo? Is it i-up, then ami-down? Or ami-down then i-up? Or neither?
It's i-up then ami-down. My reference is to end up with the last i (down) on the beat. So the i-up start off beat. But maybe then, I not execute ima as triplet feel. Maybe I done it as mai triplet instead.
_____________________________
"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
It's i-up then ami-down. My reference is to end up with the last i (down) on the beat. So the i-up start off beat.But maybe then, I not execute ima as triplet feel. Maybe I done it as mai triplet instead.
I understand what Ricardo was talking about, and I think you understand what he, you, and I were talking about. But what you played in your video just sounds plain weird to my ears por tangos.
No i don't think so. You probably execute it with the correct feel. Ricardo said that the trick is hard for a beginner to get, so I suppose even if I understand what it's about, I need to work on that ima triplet feel. Thanks for the feedback.
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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
Mezzo, Both your tangos and your FdH are very stressed. These two palos should be really layed back. So, back to the self tuition, but in another direction.... Sit back in the sofa. Imagine the warm summer breeze from the ocean. Its Spain. Its hot, everything goes slowly and things might be done mañana. When you´ve entered that space, start to play your tangos and FdH. The other day I taught Simon how to do layed back one finger ragueados por tangos. They rock. Try that. Just golpes, index finger, thumb and lots of air between the notes.
Anders, thanks for the advice. I should do some yoga meditation too Your one finger rasgueo sounds good. Look forward for a vid.
Ok, I get it, my galop sucks. I tried to apply Ricardo' pattern here which I not mastered properly. I'd not play like that normaly btw, it was just for the specific focus.
_____________________________
"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
hey romb, I almost missed your bonus explanation. Thanks. I tried also to galop for tangos.
Here and in fandangos, you gather the rasguado rhythm too fast and tight together....like 64th note triplets or something. It needs to be 16th note triplets, much slower speed and starting with up stroke that emphasizes the up beat or contra beat very clearly. Romb pretty much showed it correctly at the end of his vid.
Hi Kevin, Thanks for the suggestions. Adding a golpe is a good idea. I haven't tried it yet but I'm going to. Unfortunately golpes don't work with the ieam-type continuous roll. I think, it's important to keep experimenting. I've found that the more variation I do, the easier it becomes to execute a rasgueo or any pattern/combination. Please read my longer post to Ricardo, too. Attila
These rasgueados are nice becuase of the uniform down stroke sound...but I don't like to think of them as substitutes for other more colorful techniques that make use of up strokes too.
Going back to the original topic, I don't use the 'ieam' rasgueo and continuous roll exclusively (like Juan Serrano). I prefer using a wide range of rasgueos, such as triplet-type (pmp, pai) continuous rolls, rasgueos with upstrokes etc. It is just one possibility, which is considered to be a bit old-fashioned, but I find it very useful in some contexts.
quote:
This stroke is done so often in flamenco to produce a galloping rhythm for forms such as tangos, fandango, sevillanas, verdiales, etc, but the same issue of
You've brought up the question of gallop feel. Well, the all-downstroke continuous rasgueo can be 'galloped', too. All you must do is put a tiny stress on the i-stroke. The 'gallop' can be executed both ways: starting as 'ieam' or 'eami', too.
quote:
To attila there is the triplet version same idea, ami,ami,ami only down pretty tough.
I sometimes use the all-downstroke 'ami'-type (3-stroke) continuous rasgueo, too. It sounds a bit sharper than its 4-stroke conterpart (eami-type). The approach is much the same as with the 'eami'-type (4-stroke) roll: I started practicing it as 'iam, iam, iam'. It became routine quite easily. Then, when I tried 'ami, ami, ami', I found it easy to execute.
However, during this 'ami'-type continuous roll, one must be careful to hold the little finger in such a way as to keep it clear of the strings. It's best done by straightening the wrist a little, so that the hand is at around 45 degrees to the strings, the little finger sticking out downwards. Because of the geometrical limitations (the stings themselves) I found it easier to play this rasgueo in the treble and middle area then on the bass strings.
I never use rasgueados that are all down-strokes. If I am doing rasgueados with the eami or ami fingers, I always do them with an ending up stroke with the i finger (or at least that's what I think I do, now that I am reviewing my technique in my mind). If I want to do triplets, I either use the tresillo (Marote's) or I use iai. I never do rolls using eami-eami-eami, or ami-ami-ami.
I should work on those though...
Hi Ramzi,
The all-downstroke continuous roll is really very useful stuff, because it can be played in various ways, and the effect you get is totally different each time. Here are some ways:
- You can play it flicked or without flicks. Flicked, you get a series of shots, very even-distanced, thus very pleasing. Without flicks the effect is hazier, but still, it's very beautiful. It's beauty then lies more in the continuity itself.
- You can play it with various fingers stressed. The easiest to stress is i (index). What you get is the galloping effect.
- Probably the most dramatic effect is what you get if, during the actual rasgueo, you slow down. Then, if you want, you can speed up again. The slow part is more difficult, because the finger movement should be kept very even. Nevertheless, it's worth the effort.
- It's a nice possibility that, during the rasgueo itself, you can introduce very smooth, gradual changes, like starting to stress a particular stroke, or changing the speed of strokes.
- Another possibility is to change the actual chord pattern during the rasgueo or to transform the existing all-down rasgueo to another type, such as a continuous triplet. The possibilities are endless.
It's possible, or indeed, important to add an extra accent at the end of any length of a continuous roll (e.g. 4 or 6 sets of ieam's or eami's). It can be any stroke, commonly an i-down, or an i-down followed by a strong p-downstroke (this is what I prefer), or even an i-down followed by an i-up.
By introducing an upstroke during the all-down rasgueo you can switch to a different type of rasgueo, such as an eami-i based continuous roll.
Some more info about the all downstroke continuous roll:
The continuous roll requires some muscle strength on the upper side of the hand. It'll build up gradually by practice. You'll feel that your hand gets warm very fast due to muscle activity if you do it correctly. Don't overdo it because you can get tendosynovitis easily. Cold hands can get injured easily, so start a practice session gradually. The continuous roll is, in fact, the best warm-up if the practice session is started slowly.
Another piece of advice (good news) is that you needn't be so blazingly fast this time. In contrary, keep your fingers rolling is a steady, medium pace. In a way it's similar to the tremolo technique: it is the 'tremolo of the rasgueos'. It's good if you can feel your fingers one by one. (Even better if you can control them one by one.) This rasgueo involves intensive muscle and tendon activity on the back side of the hand. Keep your fingers - especially the index finger - in close range of your palm at the beginning. It's OK if the fingers don't extend fully first. Later, when you've become familiar with the timing of the movement, you can start extending your fingers and removing your thumb from the bass (E, A or d) string.
The continuous roll has a very uplifting effect on the listener. I call it a 'bursting' or 'waterfall' effect. The player himself has to be uplifted, too, because the technique itself requires some kind of vigorosity. So, I only work on my continuous roll when I feel happy or positive. It comes very naturally then. Because of it's psychological effect, this rasgueo can create a very strong link between player and listener.
Juan Martín uses this kind of rasgueo a lot, with amazing confidence and dexterity, as you can see it in his videos. Unfortunately, he fails to tell us how to start learning it. So far, I've only seen one method - Juan Serrano's Flamenco Guitar Basic Techniques - in which the way of learning it is clearly explained. In fact, in Juan Serrano's book the very first exercises immediately deal with the 'ieam' pattern, as the basic form of the longer, downstroke-only rasgueos.
I hope clarifying this old, but sadly neglected technique will be of good use to all of you, guys.
You've brought up the question of gallop feel. Well, the all-downstroke continuous rasgueo can be 'galloped', too. All you must do is put a tiny stress on the i-stroke. The 'gallop' can be executed both ways: starting as 'ieam' or 'eami', too.
Of course, and my point was it is an all too typical substitute for the iup FIRST followed by ami down.....and it's not a good substitute unfortunately as the sound and dynamics are so different between the two techniques. As I stated, there should be different applications for specific sound reasons. Same deal with the ami, ami gallop vs i up a-i, iai,iai gallop. Not good as interchangeable substitutes for one an other due to different dynamics.
You're quite right. I usually use this technique without gallop, because its main strength is the evenness of the strokes. So it's best to use it when one needs that effect. Thanx for your post, Attila
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