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Why Did Carolos Montoya Give his 1951 Marcelo Barbero to Sabicas?   You are logged in as Guest
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BarkellWH

Posts: 3467
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

Why Did Carolos Montoya Give his 195... 

It is well-known that the famous 1951 Marcelo Barbero flamenco guitar Sabicas used to record his album "Flamenco Puro" was given to him by Carlos Montoya, for whom Barbero made the guitar and to whom he dedicated it. What I have never seen, however, is why Montoya gave the guitar to Sabicas. Why didn't montoya keep it? Why did he give it away to Sabicas? Was he dissatisfied with it? I find it interesting that Montoya gave it to Sabicas after keeping it such a short time. Does anyone know?

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2012 16:57:27
 
etta

 

Posts: 347
Joined: Jan. 20 2010
 

RE: Why Did Carolos Montoya Give his... (in reply to BarkellWH

I do not know about the Barbero, but it was somewhat common for players like Montoya to go through a number of guitars. In l959, he brought from Madrid to New York a wonderful Hernandez y Aguado blanca dedicated to him by the makers. He soon sold that guitar to me for a very reasonable price; I assume there was something he did not care for in that guitar????
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2012 19:14:06
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3467
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Why Did Carolos Montoya Give his... (in reply to etta

Guitars are very personal, and what is wonderful, even brilliant, to one person may not be so to another. But Carlos Montoya's '51 Barbero is considered such an icon, arguably the most famous flamenco guitar around, that I wonder why he gave it to Sabicas. And Montoya gave it to him; he didn't sell it. Of course, it may be so famous because it was made for Montoya and then given to, and played by, Sabicas. Had Montoya kept it, it may not have achieved the fame that it did.

Nevertheless, my question still stands: Why did Montoya give it to Sabicas after keeping it only a short time. I assume there was something about it he didn't like, but I don't know.

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2012 19:30:54
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Why Did Carolos Montoya Give his... (in reply to BarkellWH

Poker game gone wrong?

Anyway, I remember an odd question in Guitar player magazine "how long does a flamenco guitar last?" ....and and even more odd response from C. Montoya .... some thing like a few years then he must change it!!!

I always identified Sabicas with the Ramirez sound, maybe cuz of photos and later era videos of him.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2012 22:01:48
 
estebanana

Posts: 9466
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Why Did Carolos Montoya Give his... (in reply to BarkellWH

Ask Don D. He probably knows something.

Those guys were guitar swappers and that guitar was not famous yet. (And I have trouble understanding why it is famous as it sounds ultra buzzy with that action.) Sabicas could have made that record with any guitar and then that guitar would be the icon. I think there is a lot of hype behind that guitar, it's just a guitar. I've heard Reyes', de la Chica's and Barba's, Faustino's and Gerundino's, Bellido's, et al just as good and better, depending on how buzzy you like them.

Pure speculation:
Those two fellas also probably brought guitars here and sold them to make extra money. Maybe Montoya gave it to him to pay back Sabicas for a favor or something. There were enough decent guitars for both of them, and who knows maybe Montoya had abetter sounding guitar. The Icon might have been the lesser of the two.

To me it's more like a Jimi Hendrix strat or a Jimmy Page Les Paul; Phil Keaggy's Les Paul sounded just as good, but you never hear anyone mention him.


Feel like shaving the Icon 51' Barbero's braces? I hear that is all the rage in the Luthiery section. With enough ego and some added stupidity it could be set into a great guitar.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2012 22:05:28
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Why Did Carolos Montoya Give his... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

Feel like shaving the Icon 51' Barbero's braces? I hear that is all the rage in the Luthiery section. With enough ego and some added stupidity it could be set into a great guitar.


I would first put some salt water on my finger and rub the braces under the 5th string (clearly from the recording the vowel voice was off on that string)...after the brace soaks up the water and softens it should make better tension for the notes on the 5th string. Then the salt will draw out the water and the guitar guitar will be just dandy. If that don't work yeah you could do some sanding and make it sound like a Conde. Man if only sabicas had a conde ....wishful thinking...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2012 22:41:34
 
estebanana

Posts: 9466
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Why Did Carolos Montoya Give his... (in reply to BarkellWH

Think however if you want it to sound more Indian like the roots of flamenco you must collect the water from the 'Rio Bramaputa'. And the salt must come from somewhere in France...

It would be ok with me if Sabicas would have had a Conde', everyone deserves a shot at a owing a fine Chinese guitar.

OOOHHHHH!


How is the storm? I'm here fitting a back on guitar listening to the radio and it says you're getting hit not as hard as they thought in DC.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2012 23:41:01
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3446
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Why Did Carolos Montoya Give his... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
I always identified Sabicas with the Ramirez sound, maybe cuz of photos and later era videos of him.


I have no idea what guitar Sabicas was playing in the early 1960s when I went to New York almost every weekend to hang out at Zambra. I think just about the only names I knew then were Barbero, Santos Hernandez and Esteso. I was probably too ignorant to recognize whatever Sabicas was playing at the time.

Last time I saw Sabicas was in San Antonio, Texas in midsummer 1965. The program said he was playing an Arcangel Fernandez. My fiancee and I were on the front row. The headstock looked like Arcangel.

At that concert Sabicas rocked. He was fairly buzzy, but you could hear the un-amplified notes bouncing off the plastered back wall of the pseudo-Spanish auditorium. I forget how many people it seated--900 or something like that, and it was full.

That's part of the reason why I got interested in my Arcangel blanca when Brian Cohen came up with it for sale. I really like it. Brune said he did too when he appraised it for me. Lotta dough when I bought it in 2000, but the week after I bought it I got offers of 25% more from Japan. When I'm gone my kids aren't going to be sad that their old Dad bought it.

Then YouTube started up. I started seeing videos of latter-day Sabicas with his Ramirez. Jose III's marketing campaign marched on. Wait a minute! I had owned a Ramirez blanca since 1967!! I picked it from the three or four makers I tried because I liked the sound, even if I didn't know anything about guitars. My wife liked it too--she was on a classical piano scholarship when I met her. The Ramirez taught me how to make a flamenco sound.

Still, Sabicas sounded like Sabicas on Barbero, Arcangel, Ramirez, whatever it was in 1962,,,,

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 30 2012 8:06:06
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3467
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Why Did Carolos Montoya Give his... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Poker game gone wrong?


I like that, Ricardo. There is something about winning or losing greatly at cards that is appealing. During the late '50s' and early '60s' folk revival there was a song entitled "Ballad of the South Coast," sung by Terry Gilkyson and the Easy Riders, The Kingston Trio, Ramblin' Jack Elliot, and others. It evoked early Spanish California and the area below Monterrey, primarily what today is Big Sur. It concerned a man who won his wife in a card game. The lyrics of the first stanza follow.

My name is Juan Hano de Castro,
My father was a Spanish grandee,
But I won my wife in a card game,
To Hell with the Lords o'er the sea.

It is a beautiful song. I have always enjoyed listening to it and imagining myself in such a position. But then I am an unreconstructed romantic.

I also imagine myself engaging an opponent in a duel, with the two of us entering a tavern as I state my request to the serving wench:

"Swords for two and brandy for one!"

Obviously, there is no hope for me.

Cheers,

Bill

"

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 30 2012 14:25:40
 
kudo

 

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Oct. 30 2012 21:48:31
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 30 2012 21:41:34
 
rombsix

Posts: 7931
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Why Did Carolos Montoya Give his... (in reply to kudo

quote:

who cares why he gave it him..


Kudo, sayer kbeer kteer hal iyyam. Too mucht hek...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 30 2012 21:46:53
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3467
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Why Did Carolos Montoya Give his... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

Those guys were guitar swappers and that guitar was not famous yet. (And I have trouble understanding why it is famous as it sounds ultra buzzy with that action.) Sabicas could have made that record with any guitar and then that guitar would be the icon. I think there is a lot of hype behind that guitar, it's just a guitar.


I agree with you, Stephen, that the Barbero that Montoya gave to Sabicas, while no doubt a very fine instrument, probably is over-hyped. It has reached iconic status because of the prominence of all three names involved. It has achieved legendary status much like "La Inedita," the famous guitar Santos Hernandez made for Segovia in 1935, whose iconic status was achieved, not because of its brilliant sound, but because Hernandez refused to give it to Segovia because he felt that Segovia had insulted his craftsmanship. The story goes that Santos Hernandez kept the guitar until his death, never playing it or giving it to anyone else. Thus the name "La Inedita" ("The Unpublished One").

Still, I would have liked to hear from Montoya what he thought of the Barbero and why he gave it to Sabicas. Perhaps it indeed was a losing hand in a card game, and prudence dictated handing over the Barbero rather than his wife.

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 30 2012 23:33:42
 
keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Why Did Carolos Montoya Give his... (in reply to BarkellWH

check out aaron green's posting and video of the sabicas barbero as it may have some info. aaron told me the story a while back and i forget the details. i think aron does say in the video how the guitar left sabicas' hands and into the next owner's hands--if not then again it is one of those stories he told me a while back which i forget.

as to the guitar itself, i have played it on a couple of occasions and i can say the guitar sounds better live. i was blown away by the bass which does not come across in the album/c.d. as to the mystique, well for me there was a strange and magical presence to the guitar but i am sure that was in my head and not in the wood--but then again!

estebanana--the last time i visited the barbero was a few weeks ago when i was helping out aaron with some firewood and we had a quick lunch and aaron made sure the salt shaker was kept at least 50 feet from his work area.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=200539&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=barbero&tmode=&smode=&s=#200539
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2012 18:46:46
 
aarongreen

 

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
 

RE: Why Did Carolos Montoya Give his... (in reply to BarkellWH

Hi Bill
The story is Sabicas acquired the guitar from Montoya, however that transaction is not known to have been a gift, an equally likely scenario is a sale or trade. Montoya, was in the day, the most famous flamenco guitarist alive, whatever you think of his chops, that was his status. Sabicas worked at Montoya's place, la Zambra and I think it more likely that Montoya let him have the guitar as he could, in his capacity of being Barbero's most famous client, get another guitar no problem.

Sabicas played the guitar for a while and gave it to Fidel Zabal, his friend, in return for some transcrptions he did. Which could have also been a trade depending on how you look at it. Zabal sold it to Robert Schultz so Robert could take Zabal's place on tour with Jose Greco.

I think the issue is more of hindsight clouding the reality of the times. All those guys went through guitars and Barbero was very much an active builder and a young one at that. By the time Bob got the guitar, I believe Barbero had passed but it was very recently. His name did not stir any great level of awe like it does today. To which I will add to all of you guys not to be dismissive of today's builders....you never know.:)

Sabicas owned lots of guitars in his life, a good friend witnessed him selling a Conde he owned.... he was playing it like it was his girlfriend, making all sorts of ecstatic faces and then saying, with his head shaking in regret...."it's such a shame I just can't get used to the neck" Horsetrading at it's finest.

For me personally, Barbero is the best of the old boys. I think of him as a genius, every guitar of his I have seen has had a profound and robust voice with a razor attack and a broad tonal palette. IMO the flamenco equivalent to Hauser. Not long ago I had a client, who happens to be a fine player..come to pick up his 41 Hauser I sold and then restored for him. That is the best (for me) Hauser I have ever heard, very deep and soulful with unlimited tonal range. Next to that I had to show him a client's Bouchet, from '55, likewise the best example of that builder I've seen. My guy has an interest in Bouchet and since I had one to show him, I did. Then I pulled out the 51. This was prior to it's sale, btw. He liked it better than the Hauser or Bouchet. He told me if it hadn't sold by the new year, he would take it. As it turns out another guy beat him to it. Which is how it goes.

You may disagree if you were to see it, but for me the 51 is an iconic guitar beyond comparison. There are others equally fine and a few equally famous but not in the same guitar. But thats my opinion so take it for what it's worth.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2012 19:47:45
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3467
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Why Did Carolos Montoya Give his... (in reply to aarongreen

Aaron,

Many thanks for taking the time to describe in detail the various changes in ownership (via trade, gift, or sale) of the '51 Barbero, particularly from Montoya to Sabicas. I have always been intrigued by it. By way of digression, I understand and agree with those who point out Montoya's shortcomings (playing out of compas, too much tremolo, too much ligado) but I will always appreciate him, as it was Montoya who introduced me to flamenco, first via his vinyl albums, and then seeing him perform in person for the first time in Phoenix, Arizona in 1960. Actually, Carlos Montoya could play well when he wanted to, and in his early days played for some well-known dancers such as La Argentinita. But it was Sabicas who really blew me away, and who I still prefer today above all others.

Again, thanks for your reply.

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2012 21:33:06
 
aarongreen

 

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
 

RE: Why Did Carolos Montoya Give his... (in reply to BarkellWH

Hi Bill
My pleasure. It's a fascinating thing to think of the life of this guitar and how it ended up as the lifelong companion of a very promising guitar student who ended up a world famous orthopedic surgeon. Bob was also just a magnificent human being and I was always happy for him that he was so lucky.

I agree with you about Sabicas, there is just something about his sound and playing. As Richard pointed out, he always sounded like Sabicas no matter what he was playing. Dennis Koster told me about a guitar party where a bunch of guys were passing around a cheap blanca with a horrible set up, damn near unplayable. Every single guitarist who played buzzed all over the place. Until Sabicas that is. Sabicas just had a unique touch, Dennis told me that on a few occasions he would broadly hint about how he approached technique. He would say that when he was a boy he started playing this way and the village guitar teacher tried to get him to change to more "proper" hand positions. He then would shoot a sideways glance to see if anyone caught onto what he was showing.

Wish I had met him.

aaron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2012 23:32:12
 
Ramon Amira

 

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Why Did Carolos Montoya Give his... (in reply to aarongreen

quote:

Sabicas worked at Montoya's place, la Zambra


Actually, La Zambra was started and owned by Vicente Gomez in the middle nineteen forties. Vicente, one of my teachers, was also a member and officer of the New York Society of the Classic Guitar, though well before my membership there. I met him in California in the seventies.

Ramon

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Classical and flamenco guitars from Spain Ramon Amira Guitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2012 2:16:40
 
estebanana

Posts: 9466
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Why Did Carolos Montoya Give his... (in reply to keith

quote:

estebanana--the last time i visited the barbero was a few weeks ago when i was helping out aaron with some firewood and we had a quick lunch and aaron made sure the salt shaker was kept at least 50 feet from his work area.


Thank you. I will sleep better knowing this.

Can't be too careful.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2012 2:22:19
 
estebanana

Posts: 9466
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Why Did Carolos Montoya Give his... (in reply to BarkellWH

One of the things I like best about Aaron's story, besides saying that those boys were horsetraders... the customer who picked up the Bouchet, Hauser and Barbero played three world class guitars without nomex tops. It makes smile to think there is the potential that it can still be done without using synthetic materials.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2012 2:31:40
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Why Did Carolos Montoya Give his... (in reply to BarkellWH

Nomex....?....That's a step away from buying guitar tops from Monsanto corp.....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2012 2:39:27
 
estebanana

Posts: 9466
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Why Did Carolos Montoya Give his... (in reply to BarkellWH

Nomex makes great guitars, but I like the idea of still being able to make a great guitar in without nomex. In some circles your considered old hat if you don't embrace the synthetic stuff.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2012 3:00:32
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Why Did Carolos Montoya Give his... (in reply to BarkellWH

Really??? I suppose I'm kind of a purist when it comes to most things.......my friends have been calling me grandpa since I was 22......

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2012 4:35:39
 
aarongreen

 

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
 

RE: Why Did Carolos Montoya Give his... (in reply to Ramon Amira

Ramon
Interesting. Perhaps Montoya was a part owner as the story I heard, which I hope I am recalling correctly is that Montoya was the owner. Is it possible that he sold it to Montoya?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2012 11:58:40
 
aarongreen

 

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
 

RE: Why Did Carolos Montoya Give his... (in reply to estebanana

Hi Stephen
I agree about Nomex. Simply does not interest me. I am however noticing a resurgence of interest in more "traditional"sounding guitars or at least guitars that have not lost that which is immediately given up at the altar of perceived horsepower. This is a very good thing for me as I have been getting depressed for years about the younger conservatory crowd, and their teachers, being so hot for these modern guitars that sound like plastic and honk like a goosed goose. I just don't get it, esp. when they all play amplified...

It was a special day around here to have those three guitars. Something I could get used to I must admit.

I am pretty sure I told this story before but Dennis related an exchange he had with Julio Prol back in the seventies when he was studying with him. Julio was a great figure in the classical guitar in NYC and an old Spanish Don if there ever was one. Dennis said to him, in tones of awe "You mean, you actually KNEW Santos and Esteso and all those guys...what were they like?" The response was, in a barking deep Spanish accent..."What were they LIKE? I will tell you what they were LIKE. They were MERCHANTS, thats what they were LIKE!"

I never met Julio, sadly enough. We had plans to hook up a few times in my early days of going to NYC, I wanted to show him a guitar very badly. He kept canceling saying his nails were not right, etc...I think it was a case of his playing declining in his own eyes towards the end of his life.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2012 12:09:12
 
Don Dionisio

 

Posts: 360
Joined: Feb. 16 2011
From: Durham, NC

RE: Why Did Carolos Montoya Give his... (in reply to BarkellWH

It's always good to have you around Aaron. Congratulations on the sale of this gem.
Please don't give in to the temptation of making double top guitars...

I met Julio Prol one evening with Dennis Koster and he gave us a very memorable
recital. He played and sang for several hours, mostly fandangos and other folk
songs from his past. The duende was definitely present that evening. We just sat
and listened. It was very special...
Dennis
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2012 13:25:05
 
Ramon Amira

 

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Why Did Carolos Montoya Give his... (in reply to aarongreen

quote:

Ramon
Interesting. Perhaps Montoya was a part owner as the story I heard, which I hope I am recalling correctly is that Montoya was the owner. Is it possible that he sold it to Montoya?


Aaron –

This was all before my time, but in the late sixties and seventies when I was a member of the New York Society of the Classic Guitar – Dennis Koster was also a member at that time – I was friendly with our president, Vladimir Bobri, and I learned something of the history of La Zambra from him.

Vicente definitely opened and owned La Zambra, and as he was a vice-president of the Society they held their monthly meetings at La Zambra. However, it’s entirely possible that Montoya invested in the club to help get it started, and thus could have been considered a part owner.

Montoya did live in New York at the time, along with Sabicas and Mario Escudero. In those days flamenco guitar was a much more esoteric instrument than today, and comprised a fairly small circle, so players like myself and Dennis were incredibly fortunate to be able to meet all three in private circumstances, and play with them.

Vicente moved to California in the early fifties, so if Montoya had been a part owner perhaps Vicente sold the whole thing to Montoya when he left.

Ramon

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2012 14:41:52
 
z6

 

Posts: 225
Joined: Mar. 1 2011
 

RE: Why Did Carolos Montoya Give his... (in reply to aarongreen

I have a guitar with a Nomex sandwich top... and it is delicious, and not in a goosey way. It has a wonderful sound, response, etc., in fact all the qualities we read about that are meaningless when we attempt to communicate those qualities using language. But it's Nomex and it is kick-ass wonderful.

The best thing about it is the way it plays, the neck, the lovely fast feel. It is Nomex but it's still a guitar, and the guy who built it builds beautiful guitars. In fact, the guitar itself 'press-ganged' me into flamenco. The action was so low and easy, and the strings close to the top at the bridge. (Not a guitar for the dry peghead brigade; it has plenty of sustain, the way I like it.)

Of course, with amplification all the hooey about power becomes moot.

I'm interested in your comment that there is a 'resurgence' of interest in 'traditional' guitars. Are 'modern' designs so prevalent that a proper guitar (made out of wood and glue and sweat, etc.... hold the salt) needs a 'resurgence' of interest?

I doubt many people here have a Nomex top. There could be issues with the damage flamenco might inflict on something built with a top like a butterfly wing (I intend to find out... fine so far) but surely even the classical world has not 'flipped' to the dark side en mass? But mine has two 0.6mm 'cedar skins' with a sweet honeycomb center! And I lurv it.

Great builders build great guitars... period. It makes no difference to me how they do it, as long as they do.

I've heard lots of people make disparaging remarks about Nomex/double-top/sandwich tops. I've only ever tried one (mine). If wooden guitars need a 'resurgence' then something real is going on. Classical guitarists may now, due to Nomex, appear hip to new ideas and designs but five minutes ago they were a bunch of rolly-eyed curmudgeons. Something beyond goose fantasies is going on.

Accusing every single one of those guitars of possessing identical, and critical, you would hold, flaws to make them not simply sub-standard, but laughable, does not tally with the anectdotal evidence you yourself have presented in the form of both a laugh at Nomex efforts and a rallying cry for a resurgence of that which must therefore be in need of such a thing.

How could that be? What gives? Anyone else have one of the evil breed at home?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2012 17:10:12
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Why Did Carolos Montoya Give his... (in reply to BarkellWH

When the word nomex was brought up I pictured a solid nomex top and that just sounded awful, but the idea of honeycombed nomex sandwiched between to extra thin solid pieces seems like it could do something acoustically. I picture hollow core doors, which make great drums I'm not nearly as put off by the idea now knowing the construction of it, makes sense. I'm assuming no one makes solid nomex tops..........

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2012 17:29:29
 
aarongreen

 

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
 

RE: Why Did Carolos Montoya Give his... (in reply to z6

Hi Z6
I apologize for offending you. I did recently play a spruce Gernot Wagner that was quite an excellent guitar, but to me still not possessing the best tonal qualities of a "traditional" guitar. It was very far and away the best example of a double top I have seen. Most do sound rather plastic to me with a limited tonal palette. I use the quotes around "traditional" to show that the term itself is not an absolute thing in and of itself. There are plenty of lousy fan braced guitars. But to me the" traditional" guitar sound is far more "natural" than what I hear in double top instruments and most lattice braced guitars as well.

My aversion actually to modern designs, beyond the fact that most of them do not sound good to me, is that I can not for the life of me see how these instruments can be repaired beyond a certain point. Modern adhesives are not known for their repairability, fixing cracks in a double top, delaminating from the Nomex etc...all of these things add up for me to be a very limited life span. I just have a hard time with that as a builder.

In the end it's all personal taste and there is plenty of room for that in the world.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2012 18:27:33
 
z6

 

Posts: 225
Joined: Mar. 1 2011
 

RE: Why Did Carolos Montoya Give his... (in reply to aarongreen

Mr. Green, I didn't find your comments offensive in the least. I enjoy reading your comments. Luthiers seem, to me, to be an extremely hard-headed lot who have opinions to match. This is a wonderful thing; it makes you guys build fabulous guitars.

I have to confess to a bias here, I think modern luthiers (whether Nomexed-up or Smallmanized, or doing the 'trad') are building marvelous guitars. I reckon it's best not to get five minutes with a 'classic', otherwise you might get to thinking that even though Sabicas played it and someone else fondled it a little, it's still just another lovely.... but buzzy or quiet or unbalanced or tight old geezer. Seems to me that you guys have learned huge amounts and applied your own touches to mostly surpass what we might otherwise believe to be a supernatural guitar from days of old.

I'm certainly with you in worrying about the problems posed by the difficulty of repair work on a Nomex top. It is a worry. Again, if I were a professsional flamenco player I'd need something I could throw around and batter a bit more.

However, the technology is new and luthiers are finding ways to enact various repairs. The luthier who built mine had a problem as someone had 'mashed' the Nomex with naked golpes. He reckons he fixed it by doing a little surgery. But you are correct. Until these guitars have been around for fifty years we cannot know what will happen to them. My guess is that they'll get better with age, but nobody knows. (Of course, my wishful thinking won't ensure that.)

I wouldn't doubt that the advent of Nomex, as applied to luthery, by Wagner and Damman may, in the future, be seen as an even greater leap than that we are informed Torres instigated. But that can never negate the 'traditional' instrument, nor will it necessarily stop many luthiers from building 'trad' designs that outdo the majority of Nomex jobs.

And, I have to say this, what I absolutely love about the luthery 'community' is that these two guys did not patent it. They shared it. The luthier who built mine told me of Gernot Wagner's generosity with golden information.

Imagine if the Ramirez corporation had invented the Nomex sandwich top? There would be nothing but court battles as Ramirez protected its 'mature' business.

I think though that we may soon see gazillions of factory Nomex guitars hitting the streets. Indeed, your comments about a loud plastic honking sound does seem to be the likely direction of a poorly-built Nomex guitar.

I've never tried a Smallman lattice but, from what I can gather, it doesn't seem appropriate at all for a flamenco. Those things seem more like pianos than guitars (alhough the design looks somewhat like the aforementioned banjo), but John Williams is crazy for them.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2012 21:07:26
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