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learning right hand technique ... order?   You are logged in as Guest
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el.toro

Posts: 32
Joined: Sep. 17 2012
 

learning right hand technique ... order? 

I had my second lesson last night. I started out with picado from last lesson.
I was taught the Dm and A scales to work with my picado exercises. I was also
shown arpeggio.
When I was practicing my scales tonight, I tried to arpeggio the root chords of the scales.
Wow... I know what I am supposed to do but my hand won't cooperate at all.

It seems this is a pretty advanced technique for a second lesson...
What is the order that most people get taught right hand technique ?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2012 0:57:21
 
xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1788
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: learning right hand technique ..... (in reply to el.toro

well, if your aim is to learn practical flamenco, it's way too early for picado, in my opinion...in the first couple of lessons i would think that thumb exercises and basic rasgueados would be better...of course it doesn't hurt really, but picados don't happen that often in flamenco as one might think...
arpeggios are ok, they help separate the fingers, and they're a common and essential part of flamenco...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2012 1:13:07
 
tele

Posts: 1462
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: learning right hand technique ..... (in reply to el.toro

I think starting with the thumb and index finger is a good idea. I am a beginner myself btw

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2012 16:51:41
 
FlamencoD

 

Posts: 113
Joined: Apr. 7 2012
From: Portland, OR

RE: learning right hand technique ..... (in reply to el.toro

The first thing you should learn is proper right and left hand positioning as well as what the fingers on each hand are called. Did your teacher go over that stuff in lesson 1?

Left hand: index = 1, middle = 2, ring = 3, and pinky = 4
Right hand: thumb = pulgar = p, index = i, middle = m, ring = a, and pinky = e

Then, after that, techniques like pulgar and index (p i p i, p i , etc.), 3 stroke rasgueados (e, a, m), and i (up, down, up, down, etc.) strumming are probably all real basic early stuff. I'm not a teacher so I don't have a system refined, I'm just thinking back to when I started and what I would teach someone if I was good enough. Picado takes forever to learn, so it's never to early to start practicing that, IMO!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 6 2012 1:25:23
 
el.toro

Posts: 32
Joined: Sep. 17 2012
 

RE: learning right hand technique ..... (in reply to FlamencoD

Heh... picado seems pretty easy compared to this arpeggio stuff. It is just a matter of getting the speed up. I am having trouble with the planting in arpeggio. My fingers don't want to do it.

I am just practicing my scales for now.... with picado strokes.

I can see that it will be awhile before I produce anything that sounds like flamenco.... or music.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 6 2012 2:37:03
 
FlamencoD

 

Posts: 113
Joined: Apr. 7 2012
From: Portland, OR

RE: learning right hand technique ..... (in reply to el.toro

Picado is easy...at very slow tempos. It's very difficult to do it well fast. Arpeggios are difficult, too, but they have come faster for me than a fast picado. I've been playing less than 2 years so I'm not really great at anything yet, but steadily improving. Wait until you start tremelos and alzapuas! Those are fun techniques (aren't they all?).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 6 2012 2:56:05
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: learning right hand technique ..... (in reply to el.toro

Obviously you have to do pulgar, arpeggio, tremolo, rasguedo exercises
in monotone patterns starting from very simple to very difficult.


p-pulgar(thump)-
i-index finger
m-middle finger
a-ring finger
e-little finger



P WITH ADDED ARPEGGIO PATTERNS

P:

--------------------------------------(0)-------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------0-----------0-------------------------------------------
-------------------------0-------------------------0--------------------------------------
------------------0-------------------------------------0---------------------------------
----------0--------------------------------------------------0----------------------------
--0---------------------------------------------------------------0-----------------------
...p..................



pi:

-------0-------------0-----------0----------0-----------0-----------0---------0--------0-
---------------------------------------------------0-----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------0-----------------------0---------------------------
---------------------------0-----------------------------------------------0----------------
--------------0-----------------------------------------------------------------------0------
-0--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
..p......i........>>>>>


pimi:

----------0--------------------0--------------------0----------------0----------------0---------
-----0--------0----------0---------0----------0------0----------0-----0----/0---0-----0------
---------------------------------------------------------------/0--------------------------------/0--etc
-------------------------------------------/0-----------------------------------------------------
---------------------/0--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-/0------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...p...i....m....i.........>>>>>


pami

-------0----------------------0---------------------0------------------0-----------------0----------
------------0----------------------0---------------------0------------------0-------/0------0-------
------------------0---------------------0--------------------0----/0------------0---------------0---etc
-----------------------------------------------/0-----------------------------------------------------
-------------------------/0----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-/0----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...p......a...m....i.....>>>>>


pima

------------------0------------------------0--------------------------------
-----------0------------------------0----------------------------------------
-----0------------------------0--------------------etc---------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------/0----------------------------------------------------
-0----------------------------------------------------------------------------


pimami

-----------------0--------------------------------0-------------------------
------------0--------0----------------------0--------0-------------------------
-------0-------------------0-----------0------------------0-----etc---------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------/0---------------------------------------
--0---------------------------------------------------------------------------
...p.....i.....m.....a...m....i...........




tremolo:

------0--0--0--0------------0--0--0--0------------0--0--0--0--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------/0-----------------------etc.
--------------------------/0-------------------------------------------------
/0----------------------------------------------------------------------------
...p...i...a...m..i


another tremolo:


------0--0--0--0--0-----------0--0--0--0--0--------0--0--0--0--0-
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------/0----------------------etc.
----------------------------/0----------------------------------------------------
/0---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
..p.....i..m..a..m..i


Obviously you have to practice other string combinations as well:

thump exercises:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-0--0--0--0------0------0-----------------------------------------------------
-0------------/0------0----------/0----0---0---0--------0---------0---------
-0---------------------------------0------------------/0--------0--------------
-0---------------------------------0-------------------------------------------
-0---------------------------------0-------------------------------------------
...p..p..p..p....p..p...p..p..


or

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------0---------0----------------------------------------------------------------------
--/0---------0---------------0----------0----------------------------------------------
------------------------/0----------0----------------0---------0------------------------
------------------------------------------------/0---------0-------------0--------0-----
----------------------------------------------------------------------/0-------0--------
..p....p........p...p......./p....p......p......p...../p......


with in between fingers:


-----------0-----------------------0------------------------------------------------------------------
------0----------------------0----------------------------0---------------------0--------------------
--0-------------0----/0----------------0-----------0---------------------0----------------------0--
-----------------------------------------------/0---------------0----/0-------------0--------0-------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------/0----------0
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...p....p....i......p..../p........p......i.....p...../p.....etc



and:


---------0----------------------------------------------------
-----0------0------------0--------------------------------------
----------------------0-------0-----------0----------------------
---------------------------------------0-------0-----------------
----------------------------------------------------------------
-0--------------/0---------------/0----------------------------------
..p...i..m..i......



or

----------------------------------------------0-----
-----------------------------0------------0-----0-
----------0-------------0-------0------------------
------0-------0----------------------/0-------------
--------------------/0------------------------------
--0------------------------------------------------
p......i...m....i..


you can do whatever you like:



after 40 years of studying my favorite tremolo exercise is:



-----0--0-------------------------------------------------------------------------0----0----------
-------------0---0--------0---0--------------------------0---0--------0---0--------------------------
------------------------------------0---0--------0---0-------------/0-------------------------------
----------------------------------------------/0-------------------------------------------------
----------------------/0---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-0-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.p...i...a....m...i....


-----0--0----------------------------------------------------------------0----0---------------------
/0----------0--0------0--0------------------------0--0-------0---0-------------------------------
-------------------/0----------0---0-------0--0-----------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------/0------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------/0---------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


But i wouldn't recommend that one for a beginner :-)


**************************************************************

i do the same set up in my lessons and my own studies of music. With beginners i always begin with simple base lines. Than i gradually add additional fingers. Both the musical arrangement and the techniques applied can/should be adapted to your needs and skills.....

for instance in soleares i start with the basic base line (all thump)


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------0---------------------------------------------
--------------0------------2-------------3-----2-----3----------------2------
--0-----2-----------3--------------------------------------------2------------
-------------------------------------------------------------0------------------
...p......p.....p.....


(The last 3 notes cover 10,11,12 holding a E chord)


---0---------
---0---------
---1--------
---2---------
---2---------
---0--------





than add the index i

------0--------0---------0-------------0---------0----------0------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------0----------------------->>>>>>>
---------------------0------------------------2-----------------------------------
--0-------2----------------------3-----------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
..p....i.....p....i......p......i................



than apply a "simple" arpeggio with i m only


------------0------------
-------1--------1--------->>>Hold this finger ass long as needed
------------------------
-------------------------
--0-----------------------
--------------------------
...p.....i.....m.....i.......


full compas:


---------0---------------0-------------0---------------0---------------0------------0------------
-----1------1--------1-----1-----------------------1------1-------1-------1----------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------/0------------------
----------------------------------/0----------------------------/2-----------------------------------
--0-------------/2------------------------------/3-----------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...p...i..m...i.....p....i...m..i......p........i......


-----------0----------------0------------------0----------------------0---------------0------------0-
------1--------1---------------------------1-------1------------(1)-----(1)-----(1)-----(1)---------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-/3-----------------/2----------------/3-------------------------------------------------------/2------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------/2-----------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------/0----------------------------------------



also practice variations on <10,11,12> (the part holding the E chord):

pre-exersize


-------0------------------0-
---------------------/0-----
-----------------1----------
--/2-------/2----------------
----------------------------
-----------------------------
..p.......i....p....p.....p....i



and with the bigger thump jump:



--------0----------------------0----
-------------------------/0---------
--------------------1----------------
-------------/2----------------------
-------------------------------------
-/0-----------------------------------
...p......i......p......p......p........i


You can ad some bindings:

----------0-------------------------0---------------0------------------------0----------------------
------1------1----------------------------------1------1---------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------/0-----------------------------
------------------------------/0------------------------------/2~3-----------------------------------
-/0----------------/2~3------------------/3---------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




-----------0----------------0------------------0--------------------0-------------------------0----
------1--------1---------------------------1-------1----------------------------------/0------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------1------------------
-/3-----------------/2----------------/3------------------------------------/2------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------/0----------------------------------------


Play a full ami arpeggio

-------0--------------------------------0---------0------------------------------0-----------------
------------1------------------------------------------1--------------------------------------------
-----------------2------------------------------------------0---------------/0----------------------
---------------------------------/0-------------------------------/2~3-----------------------------
-/0------------------/2~3-------------------/3-----------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.p.....a.....m...i.......p.............p.........i





-----------0----------------0------------------0--------------------0-------------------------0----
------1--------1---------------------------1-------1----------------------------------/0------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------1------------------
-/3-----------------/2----------------/3------------------------------------/2------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------/0----------------------------------------




Add another binding:



-------0---------------------------------------------0-----------------------------------------------
-----------1----------------------------------------------1-------------------------------------------
----------------2----------------------------------------------0--------------/0~0~2~0----------
------------------------------/0~0-~2~0---------------------------/2~3------------------------
--0-----------------/2~3---------------------/3-----------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------





-----------0----------------0------------------0--------------------0-------------------------0----
------1--------1---------------------------1-------1----------------------------------/0------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------1------------------
-/3-----------------/2----------------/3------------------------------------/2------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------/0----------------------------------------




Play a double arpeggio


---------------0-------------------------------------------------------0-----------------------
----------1--------1----------------------------------------------1-------1----------------------
-----2------------------2-------------------------------------0---------------0-------------/0~0~2---0
----------------------------------------/0~0~2~0--------------------------------/2~3----------
-0---------------------------/2~3-----------------------/3----------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
..p...i...m...a.....m....i.......p............p..............





-----------0----------------0------------------0--------------------0-------------------------0----
------1--------1---------------------------1-------1----------------------------------/0------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------1------------------
-/3-----------------/2----------------/3------------------------------------/2------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------/0----------------------------------------



Vary the 10-11-12 part




--------0-----------0--------0----------x--/0---x--------
-----0-----0-----------------------/0--------------
-------------------------1--------------------------
---------------/2-----------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------
--0---------------------------------------------------
...p..i...m..i../p.....i......p.....i....../p........./i


or


-------0----------------------0---------0--------------/0---
------------0-------------------------------------------------
------------------1----------------/1---------/0-------------
------------------------/2-------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------
---0----------------------------------------------------------
....p..a...m.......i........



or

------0-----------------------0----------------------/0------------
-----------0--------------------------------/0---------------------
----------------1----------------------1---------------------------
-----------------------/2-------~3--------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--0---------------------------------------------------------------
..p....a....m.....i......./p......i..........p....../p........./p.


or

--------------------0--------0-------0-----------
--------------0--------------------------/0-----
---------1-----------------------/1--------------
------------------------/2------------------------
----------------------------------------------------
--0-----------------------------------------------
....p.....i.......m.....a




and work your way up to things like.



--------------0------------------------------------------------------0-------------------------------
---------1--------1---------------------------------------------1-------1--------------------
-----2----------------2-------------------------------------0----------------0-----------/0~0~2~0-
---------------------------------------/0~0~2~0-------------------------------/2~3----------
-0---------------------------/2~3---------------------/3------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.p....i....m....a....m...i....../p........./p.................../p...i....m....a...m...i..../p........p..........





----------------0---/1~0---------------------------------0----------------0-------------------/0---
-----------3-----------------3~1~/0------------------------0-------------------------/0----------
-------2---------------------------------2~1---------------------1-----------------1----------------
---3----------------(3)-------------------------3---------------------/2------~3--------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------/0-----------------------------------------------
.....p....i....m..a..../i.........a..............m.....i....../.p...a....m...i../p......i..........p.../.p.......i




that's how i practice/build up technical combinations....from simple and monotone to more complex and varied.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 8 2012 17:43:18
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: learning right hand technique ..... (in reply to el.toro

That's nearly identical to what I did..........everyday.........for a long time..........I think it was nearly a year before any noise that sounded remotely flamenco came out of my guitar.............

_____________________________

\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 8 2012 18:02:50
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: learning right hand technique ..... (in reply to Leñador

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lenador

.........I think it was nearly a year before any noise that sounded remotely flamenco came out of my guitar.............


That's quick! :-)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 8 2012 18:13:09
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: learning right hand technique ..... (in reply to Erik van Goch

That's what I hear, my teacher said in 20 years the only other person to catch on that fast was a professor of stringed instrument theory at one of the local colleges. After that big burst of learning in the beginning I've hit a bit of a learning plateau progressing much much slower by comparison but that's fine, I've got no deadlines.........except I guess death itself........

el.toro, this should give you an idea of exactly how long and tedious it can be to take on flamenco. I know someone that didn't make any flamenco type sounds till nearly two years of daily practice. If your willing to put that kind of time and energy into it without any immediate reward you'll eventually get the pay off, but man does it take a while to get there. Keep on truckin though!

_____________________________

\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 8 2012 18:32:34
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: learning right hand technique ..... (in reply to el.toro

The good and the bad thing is that your ability to judge/enjoy your own play grows/varies with your knowledge and skills. You can be perfectly happy with a given level until the moment you can (once again) see a little bit further and realize what is (still) missing. Than you have to struggle once again to tackle that challenge. In general work is never done but one can still enjoy ones good moments every now and then.

Playing well means feeling the music and linking the right thoughts to the right body action. If you can do that (and have willing fingers) the sky is the limit. 99,9% struggles to do so but people with a natural talent for combining the right thoughts to the right action play excellent in 2-4 years and superb in 10. But they can also loose that ability over the years. I met Vicente when he played 3 or 4 years years....amazing. I had 1 student who never played flamenco before but could play the most difficult things instantly (like a demanding alzpua variation i composed at the time that took me weeks to master....and i'm considered to be a "prof":-)! Unfortunately he also "forgot" them instantly. The same guy was the ruling world champion of some rare martial art form for years in a row and even when he became older and had to enter the adult Championships he kicked everyones (much bigger) ass. Over the years my father and i met several people who paired amazing results on the guitar to amazing results in sports (or other disciplines)....it's all about control of mind and body.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 8 2012 19:58:03
 
el.toro

Posts: 32
Joined: Sep. 17 2012
 

RE: learning right hand technique ..... (in reply to el.toro

Thanks for the helpful advice. I am in for the long-haul. I will keep plugging away at it!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 9 2012 5:24:35
 
theblackcat

 

Posts: 57
Joined: Feb. 2 2010
From: Istanbul

RE: learning right hand technique ..... (in reply to el.toro

I'd go with rasgueados > picado > thumb/alzapua > tremolo. Then practice songs of course
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 9 2012 16:37:36
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13246
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: learning right hand technique ..... (in reply to el.toro

Rasgueados first.....and a lot. Goes hand in hand with left hand dexterity as you need to be able to change chords in rhythm. So most early practice should mainly be compas, rhythmic strumming using basic rasgueado or just index finger at first. Over time you add to your bag of rasgueado once you have a solid base for keeping basic time with strumming chords.

Next 5 basic arpegios using something like Solea theme Erik showed or alegria escobilla type things....where you have bass note then fingers do different patterns of arps. since Bass notes involve pulgar, basic pulgar melodies can be explored at this same stage. Pulgar falsetas por solea or normally best to explore this. No need IMO for non musical tecnique drills and such, just a basic melodic theme that also has clear compas phrasing that matches the tempo and groove stuff explored with rasgueados.

Ricardo

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 10 2012 13:01:24
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1668
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: learning right hand technique ..... (in reply to Erik van Goch

@ Erik


quote:

after 40 years of studying my favorite tremolo exercise is:


Nice tremolo exercise!

Do you know if it is ever used in a falseta?

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 1 2013 11:07:25
 
rickm

 

Posts: 446
Joined: Jan. 23 2004
 

RE: learning right hand technique ..... (in reply to el.toro

good post and good answers
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 1 2013 11:58:29
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: learning right hand technique ..... (in reply to gerundino63

quote:

ORIGINAL: gerundino63

@ Erik


quote:

after 40 years of studying my favorite tremolo exercise is:


Nice tremolo exercise!

Do you know if it is ever used in a falseta?


Not all elements have found there way to real life tremolo yet (you can see that as a challenge) but close range combat between thump and fingers and changing strings halfway the iami part does occur in real life tremolo's every now and then. Only after i created this tremolo exercise (and studied it on a daily base) i gained enough control to tackle most problems. Still the techniques don't occur in any of the 3 tremolo falsetas i composed (with the exception of a few in-between ligados they are quite straightforward). But you can find examples with others.


Soleares tremolo by Paco de Lucia (simplified)

...III........

-------4-4-4-4---------5-5-5-5---------4-4-4-----------0-0-0-0-------0-0-0-0------0-0-0-0-
----------------------------------------/0---------6--------------------------------------------------
----------------------/5-----------------------------------------------------------------/4-----------
---/3-hold->------------------------------------------------------------/3--------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------/0-----------------------------------------


When you met Vicente in the early 80ties he probably played this close combat combination halfway his granainas tremolo


..I....................................III

-----------------------------------------------
----0-0-0-0------1-1-1-1------3-3-3-3--
-/0-------------/2-------------/4------------
-----------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------


At the time i was not able to play thump and fingers at such close range 3 times on a row, so the first couples of years i played above "baseline" 1 octave lower.

-----------------------------------------------
----0-0-0-0------1-1-1--1------3-3-3-3--
-----------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------
----------------/0--------------/2------------
-/3-------------------------------------------
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 1 2013 12:23:02
 
rickm

 

Posts: 446
Joined: Jan. 23 2004
 

RE: learning right hand technique ..... (in reply to el.toro

that is why I said earlier that cross discipline studies can be beneficial even though a real aficiando might disagree with me. if you go here

http://www.classtab.org/

you will find loads of studies from folks like
brouwer
carcassi
giuliani
mertz
sergovia
sor
villa lobos

pick a couple that pleases you and have fun, they will help you get a appreciation of not only technique but hwo the scales join together in a particular key, useful if your soloing or composing
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 1 2013 12:35:37
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