learning right hand technique ... order?

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el.toro -> learning right hand technique ... order? (Oct. 4 2012 0:57:21)
I had my second lesson last night. I started out with picado from last lesson. I was taught the Dm and A scales to work with my picado exercises. I was also shown arpeggio. When I was practicing my scales tonight, I tried to arpeggio the root chords of the scales. Wow... I know what I am supposed to do but my hand won't cooperate at all. [&o] It seems this is a pretty advanced technique for a second lesson... What is the order that most people get taught right hand technique ?

xirdneH_imiJ -> RE: learning right hand technique ... order? (Oct. 4 2012 1:13:07)
well, if your aim is to learn practical flamenco, it's way too early for picado, in my opinion...in the first couple of lessons i would think that thumb exercises and basic rasgueados would be better...of course it doesn't hurt really, but picados don't happen that often in flamenco as one might think... arpeggios are ok, they help separate the fingers, and they're a common and essential part of flamenco...

tele -> RE: learning right hand technique ... order? (Oct. 4 2012 16:51:41)
I think starting with the thumb and index finger is a good idea. I am a beginner myself btw

FlamencoD -> RE: learning right hand technique ... order? (Oct. 6 2012 1:25:23)
The first thing you should learn is proper right and left hand positioning as well as what the fingers on each hand are called. Did your teacher go over that stuff in lesson 1? Left hand: index = 1, middle = 2, ring = 3, and pinky = 4 Right hand: thumb = pulgar = p, index = i, middle = m, ring = a, and pinky = e Then, after that, techniques like pulgar and index (p i p i, p i , etc.), 3 stroke rasgueados (e, a, m), and i (up, down, up, down, etc.) strumming are probably all real basic early stuff. I'm not a teacher so I don't have a system refined, I'm just thinking back to when I started and what I would teach someone if I was good enough. Picado takes forever to learn, so it's never to early to start practicing that, IMO!

el.toro -> RE: learning right hand technique ... order? (Oct. 6 2012 2:37:03)
Heh... picado seems pretty easy compared to this arpeggio stuff. It is just a matter of getting the speed up. I am having trouble with the planting in arpeggio. My fingers don't want to do it. I am just practicing my scales for now.... with picado strokes. I can see that it will be awhile before I produce anything that sounds like flamenco.... or music. [:D]

FlamencoD -> RE: learning right hand technique ... order? (Oct. 6 2012 2:56:05)
Picado is easy...at very slow tempos. It's very difficult to do it well fast. Arpeggios are difficult, too, but they have come faster for me than a fast picado. I've been playing less than 2 years so I'm not really great at anything yet, but steadily improving. Wait until you start tremelos and alzapuas! Those are fun techniques (aren't they all?).

Erik van Goch -> RE: learning right hand technique ... order? (Oct. 8 2012 17:43:18)
Obviously you have to do pulgar, arpeggio, tremolo, rasguedo exercises in monotone patterns starting from very simple to very difficult. p-pulgar(thump)- i-index finger m-middle finger a-ring finger e-little finger P WITH ADDED ARPEGGIO PATTERNS P: --------------------------------------(0)------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------0-----------0------------------------------------------- -------------------------0-------------------------0-------------------------------------- ------------------0-------------------------------------0--------------------------------- ----------0--------------------------------------------------0---------------------------- --0---------------------------------------------------------------0----------------------- ...p.................. pi: -------0-------------0-----------0----------0-----------0-----------0---------0--------0- ---------------------------------------------------0----------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------0-----------------------0--------------------------- ---------------------------0-----------------------------------------------0---------------- --------------0-----------------------------------------------------------------------0------ -0-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ..p......i........>>>>> pimi: ----------0--------------------0--------------------0----------------0----------------0--------- -----0--------0----------0---------0----------0------0----------0-----0----/0---0-----0------ ---------------------------------------------------------------/0--------------------------------/0--etc -------------------------------------------/0----------------------------------------------------- ---------------------/0-------------------------------------------------------------------------- -/0------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ...p...i....m....i.........>>>>> pami -------0----------------------0---------------------0------------------0-----------------0---------- ------------0----------------------0---------------------0------------------0-------/0------0------- ------------------0---------------------0--------------------0----/0------------0---------------0---etc -----------------------------------------------/0----------------------------------------------------- -------------------------/0---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -/0---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ...p......a...m....i.....>>>>> pima ------------------0------------------------0-------------------------------- -----------0------------------------0---------------------------------------- -----0------------------------0--------------------etc--------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------------------/0---------------------------------------------------- -0---------------------------------------------------------------------------- pimami -----------------0--------------------------------0------------------------- ------------0--------0----------------------0--------0------------------------- -------0-------------------0-----------0------------------0-----etc--------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------/0--------------------------------------- --0--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ...p.....i.....m.....a...m....i........... tremolo: ------0--0--0--0------------0--0--0--0------------0--0--0--0-- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------/0-----------------------etc. --------------------------/0------------------------------------------------- /0---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ...p...i...a...m..i another tremolo: ------0--0--0--0--0-----------0--0--0--0--0--------0--0--0--0--0- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------/0----------------------etc. ----------------------------/0---------------------------------------------------- /0--------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ..p.....i..m..a..m..i Obviously you have to practice other string combinations as well: thump exercises: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -0--0--0--0------0------0----------------------------------------------------- -0------------/0------0----------/0----0---0---0--------0---------0--------- -0---------------------------------0------------------/0--------0-------------- -0---------------------------------0------------------------------------------- -0---------------------------------0------------------------------------------- ...p..p..p..p....p..p...p..p.. or ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------0---------0---------------------------------------------------------------------- --/0---------0---------------0----------0---------------------------------------------- ------------------------/0----------0----------------0---------0------------------------ ------------------------------------------------/0---------0-------------0--------0----- ----------------------------------------------------------------------/0-------0-------- ..p....p........p...p......./p....p......p......p...../p...... with in between fingers: -----------0-----------------------0------------------------------------------------------------------ ------0----------------------0----------------------------0---------------------0-------------------- --0-------------0----/0----------------0-----------0---------------------0----------------------0-- -----------------------------------------------/0---------------0----/0-------------0--------0------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------/0----------0 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ...p....p....i......p..../p........p......i.....p...../p.....etc and: ---------0---------------------------------------------------- -----0------0------------0-------------------------------------- ----------------------0-------0-----------0---------------------- ---------------------------------------0-------0----------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------- -0--------------/0---------------/0---------------------------------- ..p...i..m..i...... or ----------------------------------------------0----- -----------------------------0------------0-----0- ----------0-------------0-------0------------------ ------0-------0----------------------/0------------- --------------------/0------------------------------ --0------------------------------------------------ p......i...m....i.. you can do whatever you like: after 40 years of studying my favorite tremolo exercise is: -----0--0-------------------------------------------------------------------------0----0---------- -------------0---0--------0---0--------------------------0---0--------0---0-------------------------- ------------------------------------0---0--------0---0-------------/0------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------/0------------------------------------------------- ----------------------/0--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -0------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- .p...i...a....m...i.... -----0--0----------------------------------------------------------------0----0--------------------- /0----------0--0------0--0------------------------0--0-------0---0------------------------------- -------------------/0----------0---0-------0--0----------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------/0------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------------/0--------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But i wouldn't recommend that one for a beginner :-) ************************************************************** i do the same set up in my lessons and my own studies of music. With beginners i always begin with simple base lines. Than i gradually add additional fingers. Both the musical arrangement and the techniques applied can/should be adapted to your needs and skills..... for instance in soleares i start with the basic base line (all thump) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------0--------------------------------------------- --------------0------------2-------------3-----2-----3----------------2------ --0-----2-----------3--------------------------------------------2------------ -------------------------------------------------------------0------------------ ...p......p.....p..... (The last 3 notes cover 10,11,12 holding a E chord) ---0--------- ---0--------- ---1-------- ---2--------- ---2--------- ---0-------- than add the index i ------0--------0---------0-------------0---------0----------0------------------ ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------0----------------------->>>>>>> ---------------------0------------------------2----------------------------------- --0-------2----------------------3----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ..p....i.....p....i......p......i................ than apply a "simple" arpeggio with i m only ------------0------------ -------1--------1--------->>>Hold this finger ass long as needed ------------------------ ------------------------- --0----------------------- -------------------------- ...p.....i.....m.....i....... full compas: ---------0---------------0-------------0---------------0---------------0------------0------------ -----1------1--------1-----1-----------------------1------1-------1-------1---------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------/0------------------ ----------------------------------/0----------------------------/2----------------------------------- --0-------------/2------------------------------/3----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ...p...i..m...i.....p....i...m..i......p........i...... -----------0----------------0------------------0----------------------0---------------0------------0- ------1--------1---------------------------1-------1------------(1)-----(1)-----(1)-----(1)--------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -/3-----------------/2----------------/3-------------------------------------------------------/2------ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------/2----------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------/0---------------------------------------- also practice variations on <10,11,12> (the part holding the E chord): pre-exersize -------0------------------0- ---------------------/0----- -----------------1---------- --/2-------/2---------------- ---------------------------- ----------------------------- ..p.......i....p....p.....p....i and with the bigger thump jump: --------0----------------------0---- -------------------------/0--------- --------------------1---------------- -------------/2---------------------- ------------------------------------- -/0----------------------------------- ...p......i......p......p......p........i You can ad some bindings: ----------0-------------------------0---------------0------------------------0---------------------- ------1------1----------------------------------1------1--------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------/0----------------------------- ------------------------------/0------------------------------/2~3----------------------------------- -/0----------------/2~3------------------/3--------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------0----------------0------------------0--------------------0-------------------------0---- ------1--------1---------------------------1-------1----------------------------------/0------------ -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------1------------------ -/3-----------------/2----------------/3------------------------------------/2------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------------------------------------/0---------------------------------------- Play a full ami arpeggio -------0--------------------------------0---------0------------------------------0----------------- ------------1------------------------------------------1-------------------------------------------- -----------------2------------------------------------------0---------------/0---------------------- ---------------------------------/0-------------------------------/2~3----------------------------- -/0------------------/2~3-------------------/3----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ .p.....a.....m...i.......p.............p.........i -----------0----------------0------------------0--------------------0-------------------------0---- ------1--------1---------------------------1-------1----------------------------------/0------------ -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------1------------------ -/3-----------------/2----------------/3------------------------------------/2------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------------------------------------/0---------------------------------------- Add another binding: -------0---------------------------------------------0----------------------------------------------- -----------1----------------------------------------------1------------------------------------------- ----------------2----------------------------------------------0--------------/0~0~2~0---------- ------------------------------/0~0-~2~0---------------------------/2~3------------------------ --0-----------------/2~3---------------------/3----------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------0----------------0------------------0--------------------0-------------------------0---- ------1--------1---------------------------1-------1----------------------------------/0------------ -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------1------------------ -/3-----------------/2----------------/3------------------------------------/2------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------------------------------------/0---------------------------------------- Play a double arpeggio ---------------0-------------------------------------------------------0----------------------- ----------1--------1----------------------------------------------1-------1---------------------- -----2------------------2-------------------------------------0---------------0-------------/0~0~2---0 ----------------------------------------/0~0~2~0--------------------------------/2~3---------- -0---------------------------/2~3-----------------------/3---------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ..p...i...m...a.....m....i.......p............p.............. -----------0----------------0------------------0--------------------0-------------------------0---- ------1--------1---------------------------1-------1----------------------------------/0------------ -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------1------------------ -/3-----------------/2----------------/3------------------------------------/2------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------------------------------------/0---------------------------------------- Vary the 10-11-12 part --------0-----------0--------0----------x--/0---x-------- -----0-----0-----------------------/0-------------- -------------------------1-------------------------- ---------------/2----------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------ --0--------------------------------------------------- ...p..i...m..i../p.....i......p.....i....../p........./i or -------0----------------------0---------0--------------/0--- ------------0------------------------------------------------- ------------------1----------------/1---------/0------------- ------------------------/2------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------- ---0---------------------------------------------------------- ....p..a...m.......i........ or ------0-----------------------0----------------------/0------------ -----------0--------------------------------/0--------------------- ----------------1----------------------1--------------------------- -----------------------/2-------~3-------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- --0--------------------------------------------------------------- ..p....a....m.....i......./p......i..........p....../p........./p. or --------------------0--------0-------0----------- --------------0--------------------------/0----- ---------1-----------------------/1-------------- ------------------------/2------------------------ ---------------------------------------------------- --0----------------------------------------------- ....p.....i.......m.....a and work your way up to things like. --------------0------------------------------------------------------0------------------------------- ---------1--------1---------------------------------------------1-------1-------------------- -----2----------------2-------------------------------------0----------------0-----------/0~0~2~0- ---------------------------------------/0~0~2~0-------------------------------/2~3---------- -0---------------------------/2~3---------------------/3------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- .p....i....m....a....m...i....../p........./p.................../p...i....m....a...m...i..../p........p.......... ----------------0---/1~0---------------------------------0----------------0-------------------/0--- -----------3-----------------3~1~/0------------------------0-------------------------/0---------- -------2---------------------------------2~1---------------------1-----------------1---------------- ---3----------------(3)-------------------------3---------------------/2------~3-------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------/0----------------------------------------------- .....p....i....m..a..../i.........a..............m.....i....../.p...a....m...i../p......i..........p.../.p.......i that's how i practice/build up technical combinations....from simple and monotone to more complex and varied.

Leñador -> RE: learning right hand technique ... order? (Oct. 8 2012 18:02:50)
That's nearly identical to what I did..........everyday.........for a long time..........I think it was nearly a year before any noise that sounded remotely flamenco came out of my guitar.............

Erik van Goch -> RE: learning right hand technique ... order? (Oct. 8 2012 18:13:09)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lenador .........I think it was nearly a year before any noise that sounded remotely flamenco came out of my guitar............. That's quick! :-)

Leñador -> RE: learning right hand technique ... order? (Oct. 8 2012 18:32:34)
That's what I hear, my teacher said in 20 years the only other person to catch on that fast was a professor of stringed instrument theory at one of the local colleges. After that big burst of learning in the beginning I've hit a bit of a learning plateau progressing much much slower by comparison but that's fine, I've got no deadlines.........except I guess death itself........ el.toro, this should give you an idea of exactly how long and tedious it can be to take on flamenco. I know someone that didn't make any flamenco type sounds till nearly two years of daily practice. If your willing to put that kind of time and energy into it without any immediate reward you'll eventually get the pay off, but man does it take a while to get there. Keep on truckin though!

Erik van Goch -> RE: learning right hand technique ... order? (Oct. 8 2012 19:58:03)
The good and the bad thing is that your ability to judge/enjoy your own play grows/varies with your knowledge and skills. You can be perfectly happy with a given level until the moment you can (once again) see a little bit further and realize what is (still) missing. Than you have to struggle once again to tackle that challenge. In general work is never done but one can still enjoy ones good moments every now and then. Playing well means feeling the music and linking the right thoughts to the right body action. If you can do that (and have willing fingers) the sky is the limit. 99,9% struggles to do so but people with a natural talent for combining the right thoughts to the right action play excellent in 2-4 years and superb in 10. But they can also loose that ability over the years. I met Vicente when he played 3 or 4 years years....amazing. I had 1 student who never played flamenco before but could play the most difficult things instantly (like a demanding alzpua variation i composed at the time that took me weeks to master....and i'm considered to be a "prof":-)! Unfortunately he also "forgot" them instantly. The same guy was the ruling world champion of some rare martial art form for years in a row and even when he became older and had to enter the adult Championships he kicked everyones (much bigger) ass. Over the years my father and i met several people who paired amazing results on the guitar to amazing results in sports (or other disciplines)....it's all about control of mind and body.

el.toro -> RE: learning right hand technique ... order? (Oct. 9 2012 5:24:35)
Thanks for the helpful advice. I am in for the long-haul. I will keep plugging away at it!

theblackcat -> RE: learning right hand technique ... order? (Oct. 9 2012 16:37:36)
I'd go with rasgueados > picado > thumb/alzapua > tremolo. Then practice songs of course [:)]

Ricardo -> RE: learning right hand technique ... order? (Oct. 10 2012 13:01:24)
Rasgueados first.....and a lot. Goes hand in hand with left hand dexterity as you need to be able to change chords in rhythm. So most early practice should mainly be compas, rhythmic strumming using basic rasgueado or just index finger at first. Over time you add to your bag of rasgueado once you have a solid base for keeping basic time with strumming chords. Next 5 basic arpegios using something like Solea theme Erik showed or alegria escobilla type things....where you have bass note then fingers do different patterns of arps. since Bass notes involve pulgar, basic pulgar melodies can be explored at this same stage. Pulgar falsetas por solea or normally best to explore this. No need IMO for non musical tecnique drills and such, just a basic melodic theme that also has clear compas phrasing that matches the tempo and groove stuff explored with rasgueados. Ricardo

gerundino63 -> RE: learning right hand technique ... order? (Mar. 1 2013 11:07:25)
@ Erik quote: after 40 years of studying my favorite tremolo exercise is: Nice tremolo exercise! Do you know if it is ever used in a falseta?

rickm -> RE: learning right hand technique ... order? (Mar. 1 2013 11:58:29)
good post and good answers

Erik van Goch -> RE: learning right hand technique ... order? (Mar. 1 2013 12:23:02)
quote: ORIGINAL: gerundino63 @ Erik quote: after 40 years of studying my favorite tremolo exercise is: Nice tremolo exercise! Do you know if it is ever used in a falseta? Not all elements have found there way to real life tremolo yet (you can see that as a challenge) but close range combat between thump and fingers and changing strings halfway the iami part does occur in real life tremolo's every now and then. Only after i created this tremolo exercise (and studied it on a daily base) i gained enough control to tackle most problems. Still the techniques don't occur in any of the 3 tremolo falsetas i composed (with the exception of a few in-between ligados they are quite straightforward). But you can find examples with others. Soleares tremolo by Paco de Lucia (simplified) ...III........ -------4-4-4-4---------5-5-5-5---------4-4-4-----------0-0-0-0-------0-0-0-0------0-0-0-0- ----------------------------------------/0---------6-------------------------------------------------- ----------------------/5-----------------------------------------------------------------/4----------- ---/3-hold->------------------------------------------------------------/3-------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------/0----------------------------------------- When you met Vicente in the early 80ties he probably played this close combat combination halfway his granainas tremolo ..I....................................III ----------------------------------------------- ----0-0-0-0------1-1-1-1------3-3-3-3-- -/0-------------/2-------------/4------------ ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------- At the time i was not able to play thump and fingers at such close range 3 times on a row, so the first couples of years i played above "baseline" 1 octave lower. ----------------------------------------------- ----0-0-0-0------1-1-1--1------3-3-3-3-- ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------- ----------------/0--------------/2------------ -/3-------------------------------------------

rickm -> RE: learning right hand technique ... order? (Mar. 1 2013 12:35:37)
that is why I said earlier that cross discipline studies can be beneficial even though a real aficiando might disagree with me. if you go here http://www.classtab.org/ you will find loads of studies from folks like brouwer carcassi giuliani mertz sergovia sor villa lobos pick a couple that pleases you and have fun, they will help you get a appreciation of not only technique but hwo the scales join together in a particular key, useful if your soloing or composing

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