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wfrancis86

 

Posts: 36
Joined: Jun. 30 2012
 

poor man's side bending ideas 

I have a pair of sides that I picked up through lmi in a kit. They've were pre-bent for me about a month and a half ago so the pieces are starting to come out of form. They've been held tightly in some kind of plastic wrap but it looks like I need to touch them up a bit again to get them fitting nicely to my form. This is my first build so I don't have a bending iron. Does anyone have a suggestion for a poor man's bending iron that will help me do what I described? I am bending Monterey Cyrpress if it makes any difference. Seems like I could just get a piece of metal piping (diameter?) and heat it up (torch? light bulbs?) and use a damp cloth... Thanks for the help in advance
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 26 2012 15:08:13
 
Gimar

 

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Joined: May 13 2012
 

RE: poor man's side bending ideas (in reply to wfrancis86

I use a steel pipe and use a simple camping gas torch to heat it. I made a wooden block that holds the pipe horizontal and I use a steel clamp to attach the block+ pipe on my workbench.

Diameter depends on your guitar model I guess. Not sure wich exact diametre I use.
I use a big and a smaller one.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 26 2012 21:39:33
 
wfrancis86

 

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Joined: Jun. 30 2012
 

RE: poor man's side bending ideas (in reply to wfrancis86

Thanks. That sounds like what I was basically thinking. How hot should I get the pipe? Could you share any tips for a first- timer like myself? Do you use a damp towel or something else for water?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 27 2012 1:04:30
 
Gimar

 

Posts: 39
Joined: May 13 2012
 

RE: poor man's side bending ideas (in reply to wfrancis86

I just heat up the pipe, and use my hands to splash a little bit of water on there.

If the pipe is not hot enough the water will start to boil on the pipe.
If the pipe gets too hot the waterdrops will jump off the pipe, without even vaporizing.
and if the pipe is just the right temperature the waterdrops will go pssshhhsttt and dissapear as soon as they touch the pipe.

I use a big bowl to store some water, and I just dip my fingers in and damp thew ood/spred the water. Then slowly run the piece of wood over the pipe to let all the water vaporize and make the wood fibres soft.

I suggtest you find a test piece of wood to try this out first, to much pressure and your sides will snap, to little pressure and nothing much will happen.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 27 2012 9:27:07
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1704
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: poor man's side bending ideas (in reply to wfrancis86

To avoid scorching the wood, especially at the waist curve, which requires the most heating, place a damp rag over the pipe. The steam makes the bend go faster and the rag prevents scorching.

_____________________________

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I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 28 2012 5:26:57
 
wfrancis86

 

Posts: 36
Joined: Jun. 30 2012
 

RE: poor man's side bending ideas (in reply to wfrancis86

I picked up a big steel socket, about 4 inches or so in diameter, that fits into another rod about a foot and half long. I was trying to heat it with a torch and I don't know if this thing is going to work or if it is just my reluctance to push to hard. The socket itself weighs about 10 pounds it seems, but it doesn't seem to hold the heat very well. How ofter do you reheat the metal pipe you are using? Also, if I am making the first sharp bend at the waist, how much of the side should be warm as I do this? I am going to try to damp towel method and see if that gives me any results.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 29 2012 22:23:07
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1704
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: poor man's side bending ideas (in reply to wfrancis86

I know it seems like a good idea to have all that metal, but I think it is better to just heat the piece that your workpiece will come in contact with, and best to heat it continuously, with the flame adjusted accordingly. (So rig the torch so it's heating the inside of the pipe.)

I do waist bends heating only 2 or 3 inches of wood, but it varies and you have to kind of do it by feel using all your senses. Good luck.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 30 2012 1:25:18
 
wfrancis86

 

Posts: 36
Joined: Jun. 30 2012
 

RE: poor man's side bending ideas (in reply to wfrancis86

I tried putting a wet t-shirt over the pipe and using that to kind of steam the piece but no luck. So you say I should try and keep the pipe heated continuously? The pipe itself is actually a solid steel rod at 1 and 1/4'' diameter... should this work or would i be better off looking for something else?

Today was a little frustrating. I practiced bending extra spruce fan bracing I had lying around and also thin maple veneer. Both bent easily, but when I went to bend the cypress it started to actually unfold. As I mentioned in the original post the sides were pre-bent at lmi but the one side I I was working on has ironically begun to go straight relative to the one I haven't even touched. I will have to check some youtube videos out or something and see in what ways my technique/setup is lacking. Thanks for the help
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 30 2012 2:09:36
 
Gimar

 

Posts: 39
Joined: May 13 2012
 

RE: poor man's side bending ideas (in reply to wfrancis86

the more water you use when bending the more it will tend to spring back.
take your time, it takes a while for the wood fibres to go soft and become flexible.
I usually heat the piece of wood on the bending iron and after a while you can feel the wood become flexible and able to bend.

when I bend my first sides I think it took me all day to bend both sides, so don't expect this to be done in 2 hours on your first try.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 30 2012 11:48:51
 
estebanana

Posts: 9544
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: poor man's side bending ideas (in reply to wfrancis86

If I may to add to what has been posted so far:

You might try using as little water as possible. As has been said, the wood is heated and reaches a point where it goes plastic and you can move it. Rosewood does this beautifully, cypress is more stubborn.

One problem with spring back can happen when the rib is too wet. The heat on the bending iron should draw the water out of the rib and leave it dry and hot. Then you hold the rib onto a tracing of the outline until it cools, dry.

The cell walls of the wood will become pliable when you wet the ribs and turn the water into steam inside the wood. But you have to work the water out of the rib because the mechanics of the wood fiber dictate that you let it cool in the position you want it to take. If the wood has moisture inside it it will not hold the bend because the cell walls and lignin in the wood will remain flexible while it cools. It needs to be dry as it cools. Very important.

The classic dilemma with rib bending is too much water equals poor bending and with not enough moisture scorching can happen. It's sometimes maddening to hit the right balance with certain woods, cypress can be tricky it is blonde and will show scorching.

One way to get water into the rib, avoid scorching and still bend fairly dry, is to use a strip of newspaper that you spritz water on. Also using a spritz bottle on your rib helps, or simply running a wet cloth on the outside of the rib an when wiping off the excess water. When you go to bend you can stick the damp newsprint to side of the rib you are bending and it gives you some margin of protection from scorching. A dry rib with a wet strip of paper can be just the right amount of moisture to drive steam into the wood, yet not make it difficult to dry out.

So the concept of how the wood works is: bend moist, draw out wetness with heat, wait for the point where the wood plastisizes and then hold the bend on a tracing until it cools. Then repeat. Cypress gives you a more subtle indication that it is plastic than rosewood, it's just more springy by nature. But if you think about the process as more dry than wet, without burning, you may have better results. What ever technical means you have to do to achieve this is up to your experimentation, but getting more clear on how and why wood will bend gives you an idea of how to work.

I soaked my first ribs in the kitchen sink, they were flame maple. I went to bend them and they broke like potato chips. You'll have better luck.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 30 2012 20:21:15
 
wfrancis86

 

Posts: 36
Joined: Jun. 30 2012
 

RE: poor man's side bending ideas (in reply to wfrancis86

Oops! Looks like I pushed the sides a little too far. After messing with my setup I finally landed on a piece of copper tubing with the torch aimed obliquely into the end. This seemed to work okay, but it was still difficult to get the temperature dialed in. I think if I messed around with it enough I could get something that would work. Long story short the side began to bend, but I think the difference in temp between the end of the pipe and closer in towards the heat source was too much, so while half of the side was bending the other side wasn't ready and started to crack. This is my theory at least. Might be worth it to invest in an actual side bending iron that I can control the temp better with.

(Expensive) lesson learned... maybe I can use the sides for a ukulele or something in the future (they are only cracked about 1/4 of the way through). Thanks for the advice though and I will apply it on my next attempt.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 1 2012 2:22:05
 
estebanana

Posts: 9544
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: poor man's side bending ideas (in reply to wfrancis86

Bummer. There are some inexpensive side benders that people have made with 300 watt light bulbs and aluminum tubes. Probably some plans online at some of the guitar making forums. You can use the ribs as lining for the back, cut them into long strips. A good side bender is nice to have although many have used the pipe heated with torch method for years.

Probably better of with a section of heavy thick iron pipe. Thicker material distributes the heat more evenly. Copper conducts rapidly, but unless you have thickness the heat will sink out fast. How thick is the copper?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 1 2012 2:44:18
 
wfrancis86

 

Posts: 36
Joined: Jun. 30 2012
 

RE: poor man's side bending ideas (in reply to wfrancis86

In retrospect there probably were several things wrong with my setup. The copper tube wasn't thick enough, but what I started out with (a huge solid metal rod) was too big/dense. I should have used something in between. Next time I would probably look for some 1/8'' to 1/4'' aluminum tubing. Also, my pipe in my setup was making too much contact with the piece of wood I had it propped on which was sucking heat out of it. If you used the right materials and took some time to get it dialed in, I imagine the torch to pipe method would be every bit as effective as a commercially bought iron.

I wasn't planning on bending these sides, but as they sat around for a few weeks they sprung back out of form. I decided they had gone too far out of form and so needed to be bent a little back into shape in order to work. This whole process of building my first guitar has been a bit more accelerated than I would have liked. I am on a break from work (I live and teach English in Bogota, Colombia) and am trying to build the guitar with my dad over about a month and a half. Under different circumstances I would have put more thought and time into the setup. When you rush you make stupid mistakes.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 1 2012 6:36:44
 
nattyxylem

 

Posts: 3
Joined: Feb. 22 2020
 

RE: poor man's side bending ideas (in reply to wfrancis86

I used gor my first guitar some plastic bread bags a kettle and a shower hose. conected the kettle to the shower hose with; the piece of aliminium thats around little candles, wrap some silver foil around it. put the end of the shower hose in the bag. and steamed it up 20 minutes! It worked pretty fine however bending to the mould shape should be done slowly, otherwise it might crack
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 22 2020 12:36:23
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