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Soleares .... Norman?   You are logged in as Guest
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John O.

Posts: 1720
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

Soleares .... Norman? 

I've been checking out the soleares structures on Norman's website, which is great by the way!

Initially checking out your site I had one question in mind, I've accompanied this sung por soleá, relatively slow:

E-------------------Am
Una escalera de vidrio
----------------------C-B7
ay, por una sube la pena
-----------F----------------E
por otra baja el martirio
----------------------C-B7
ay, por una sube la pena
-----------F----------------E
por otra baja el martirio

So this would be an ABC-BC, but you don't list VI-V7 as typical soleá accompanyment. So could this just be considered an uncommon personal interpretation by the singer or is it a solea por buleria sung as a soleá, or a soleá por bulerias por soleá, so to speak? Or am I splitting hairs?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 2 2012 13:48:04
 
NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
 

RE: Soleares .... Norman? (in reply to John O.

Hi John,

Thanks for the info. Without hearing it, I'm not able to say whether it's bulería por soleá, a personal variation, or splitting hairs.

I appreciate the input, though. Logically, my site doesn't include all styles and variations that have been recorded. I'm currently revising the siguiriyas page, especially the derivatives of Viejo de La Isla. Once that's done, I'll have a look at adding more cantes. Feel free to upload an audio track to the forum or send it to me via e-mail.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 2 2012 17:10:04
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13290
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Soleares .... Norman? (in reply to John O.

quote:

ORIGINAL: John O.

I've been checking out the soleares structures on Norman's website, which is great by the way!

Initially checking out your site I had one question in mind, I've accompanied this sung por soleá, relatively slow:

E-------------------Am
Una escalera de vidrio
----------------------C-B7
ay, por una sube la pena
-----------F----------------E
por otra baja el martirio
----------------------C-B7
ay, por una sube la pena
-----------F----------------E
por otra baja el martirio

So this would be an ABC-BC, but you don't list VI-V7 as typical soleá accompanyment. So could this just be considered an uncommon personal interpretation by the singer or is it a solea por buleria sung as a soleá, or a soleá por bulerias por soleá, so to speak? Or am I splitting hairs?


I am imagining the melody in my head, and I would say it's personal, the melody of the first line would be helpful. Are you positive the "cambio" is like that and not normal G7, or G7-C? I assume the singer lands an F# and that's why you want those C-B chords...if it's NOT F# the singer sings, you might suposed to be playing good ol G7 like a normal solea cambio.

ANother reverse cambio I have had to acompany a lot I did not notice as a standard style and think a personalized variant is the cambio that the singer sings (as per your example) a Bb note on the B verse, so you do C7-F....then resolve as normal F-E.

So knowing whats the FIRST line melody will probably get at what style the solea or buleria por solea etc, is based on.

Ricardo

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www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 2 2012 17:18:06
 
John O.

Posts: 1720
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: Soleares .... Norman? (in reply to Ricardo

It's definitely an F# there, bringing the voice down from A over G like you'd hear in bulerias.

Don't have an exact recording so I'll use this as an example:
Here's the link
The first line is sung like "Ay encontrao en la vida" at 1:30-1:34
The next two are sung like "Me duele, me duele, boquita de decirte..." at 0:49-0:59 and repeated.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 3 2012 9:08:47
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13290
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Soleares .... Norman? (in reply to John O.

Got it... I think. Do you have Potito's album
Barrio alto? The last track is solea palo seco.
I think it's in our cante accomp thread check index.
Last letra starts at 2:27 goes up to a minor then cambio
BUT he slips in the F# at the tail end both times.
I Would do C chord on 10 via G7 then the
B7 on 12. And that's knowing in advance ...
Normal accomp style I'd miss that change all together
Probably and let the C chord finish it up.

If your singer is hitting F# earlier than Potito's
You are right to make a clear Change to B7 on 10
or whatever. I feel it's a personal embellishment
that a singer could do to any cambio but it may
Have an origin not sure. Same type of sneaky
Chromatics Norman pointed out w Pastora
Siguiriyas earlier and guitar didn't give tritone sub
Like or modern fusion guys would ... But it's ok
IMO because it's one of the acceptable
mistakes of accompaniment

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 3 2012 15:36:29
 
NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
 

RE: Soleares .... Norman? (in reply to John O.

Hi John,

I listened to your bulerías track in the audio section, I tracked down the cantes you mentioned, and I tried to imagine a cante por soleá that starts like one of those bulerías and ends like another one. Just a guess, but maybe the cante that you mentioned in your first post was the bulería corta in a context of bulería por soleá. Or a personal variation. But I'd really have to hear that cante to be sure. Let me know if you find a recording.

EDIT: Ah, I hadn't noticed Ricardo's post. Check it out and let us know.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 3 2012 16:12:14
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13290
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Soleares .... Norman? (in reply to John O.

Here's potito:
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=124692&appid=&p=&mpage=9&key=potito%2Cfragua&tmode=&smode=&s=#127991

I realized when playing along, my ear won't let me do the cambio I described earlier....I feel a need to hold on to the A minor chord longer as per what he does with the voice. Like first line, E-Am, second line stay Am till B7 (or rather Am, then E-Am on 10, then B7 on 12). 3rd line resolve. Same on repeat, I am pulled to Am again then B7 on 12 briefly as I described. I could be wrong, but I can't deny my gut instinct when playing. I mean I can play the cambio there no prob, just something feels weird. For me it's yet another case where "detaching" from the lyric for sake of musicality is important. I will load up my accompanyment for it and if anyone got a better way to do it it would be helpful to see.

Ricardo

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 3 2012 17:33:55
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13290
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Soleares .... Norman? (in reply to Ricardo



Sorry, it's por medio not por arriba, so as per topic above, Dm, and instead of the C7-F move I stay on Dm, and toss in the brief E7 ... which purposely I knew was coming. In practice I wouldn't catch that on the fly.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 3 2012 18:18:43
 
John O.

Posts: 1720
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: Soleares .... Norman? (in reply to Ricardo

That is it EXACTLY ... thanks!

Glad to see you would have done it the same. Rocío Márquez sang this for a workshop I accompanied and she seemed okay with it that way, too - she was por medio, too. With the voice jumping between the F and the D I didn't even consider the cambio with C7. She stuck it on the end of a Soleá de Alcala.

Something about the structure of this letra, especially that missing C7, made it feel more like a solea por buleria, which is why I was asking - but I guess from what you write it's an uncommon interpretation of Soleá. I still can't seem to get all the origins and structures of soleá and soleá por bulerias into a line in my head, but looking at Norman's website it does look like a complex topic anyways. But Norman, your site has helped me with this a great deal already nevertheless!

Thanks again for your help, guys!

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Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 3 2012 22:14:23
 
NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
 

RE: Soleares .... Norman? (in reply to John O.

Ah-ha! Starts like Joaquín el de La Paula 2 but goes to the sharped second degree in the second line, unlike the bulería corta. Good job, guys!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 4 2012 5:56:13
 
machopicasso

 

Posts: 899
Joined: Nov. 27 2010
 

RE: Soleares .... Norman? (in reply to NormanKliman

quote:

Good job, guys!


This is why I visit the foro. Thanks guys.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 5 2012 8:01:30
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