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britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

Fixing action on old guitar? 
I have this old blanca. Dont remember the make, label fell out years ago. I bought it about 1970-72 shortly after moving from England to Montreal. (To try to supplant my '58 Ramirez blanca which was cracking up in the Montreal winters).

My feeble memory tells me this was probably a Japanese 'knock-off' of a
famous Spanish luthier, but I am not too clear on this. I always thought the face was a plywood laminate, but am not sure about this either. Anybody help here?

I recently dug this old bugger out after years of being hidden away in a closet. Surprizingly it sounded not half bad, but I felt the action was a bit too high for Flamenco. So I tried to reduce it by lowering the saddle, and also shaved a bit off the bridge to lower it a bit more! (See photos, obviously I'm no luthier!).

Right now the 6th string shows about 3.5mm clearance above the 12th fret, and 8mm clearance from the face to the saddle. Putting a straightedge along the whole fingerboard shows about a 1.5 - 2mm clearance at the 7/8th fret. Is this normal?

My questions are:

* Are these string clearances consistent with an average well- set-up flamenco guitar?

*Do these dimensions indicate any serious bowing of the neck?

*Is there anything else I ( meaning a non-luthier dumbo) can do to lower the action, other than reducing saddle height - which is already extremely low to maintain a feasible string break angle - see photo?

I took it to the celebrated 12th Fret guitar shop in Toronto, and was advised ( with predictable laughter) that everything possible had already been done ( by me) other than an expensive neck re-set.

I dont think I paid very much for the guiitar when new, and re-setting the neck - if necessary - is probably not worth it.

But I do like the instrument. It plays well, has a nice raspy flamenco bass; is as light as a feather - and I'd like to be able to use it as a practice guitar, or as a loaner to friends.

Any advice welcomed. . .









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Attachment (4)

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Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2012 21:27:29
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to britguy) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: britguy


Right now the 6th string shows about 3.5mm clearance above the 12th fret, and 8mm clearance from the face to the saddle. Putting a straightedge along the whole fingerboard shows about a 1.5 - 2mm clearance at the 7/8th fret. Is this normal?

No. That is more than normal relief. I'd say your neck is warped.

quote:


* Are these string clearances consistent with an average well- set-up flamenco guitar?

I'd call this a low to medium classic action.
quote:


*Is there anything else I ( meaning a non-luthier dumbo) can do to lower the action, other than reducing saddle height - which is already extremely low to maintain a feasible string break angle - see photo?

Not really. Resetting the neck is probably not cost effective on this guitar. If the fingerboard is thick enough and the neck has enough wood a luthier could back taper the fingerboard to get better action. Of course this is not an inexpensive repair since there is a fair amount of labor involved including a complete fret job.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2012 22:38:21
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to britguy) 
Remove the strings and use weights to bring the neck to a flatter position. Let it sit for a day and then remove the weights and wait some time before you bring the strings to pitch.

Try not to break anything
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 6 2012 0:19:29
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to Sr. Martins) 
I encourage you to try Mr. Martins' solution. When that fails you can either live with it as is or take it in for what I suggested above.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 6 2012 17:35:09
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to jshelton5040) 
Mr. Martins?

I feel that my advice has been taken to a whole new level of credibility
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 6 2012 20:06:06
 
prd1

 

Posts: 206
Joined: Jul. 11 2007
 

RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to Sr. Martins) 
I fear not!!!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 6 2012 20:45:13
 
britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to jshelton5040) 
quote:

I encourage you to try Mr. Martins' solution.


Yes. That idea sounded very interesting, and presumably fairly simple to do. I seem to have heard of it before, somewhere,

Any ideas on how much weight may be needed, and how to apply it. Also how to determine when enough is "enough"???

As you say, I may just learn to live with it. It's actually not all that bad. Just feels very different fom my other instruments.

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Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 7 2012 13:07:17
 
Flamingrae

 

Posts: 220
Joined: May 19 2009
 

RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to britguy) 
I think previous posts have covered the main points but I'll throw in a small something.
Break angle - this has happened to me and I've used this method to make this better.
Examine the position of the holes from the end of the guitar. Sometimes they wear up and sometimes they are just drilled too far from the base of the bridge. You can plug the original holes with rosewood. Then you solder a drill bit into the end of a piece of steel about 2.5 diam. This needs to be about 8 - 9ins long. Bend the other end of the rod into a crank handle. You should then - with a bit of care and patience - be able to re-drill the holes so they are lower in the bridge. You will probably have to remove some material from the middle channel to see the new holes. You can cut the height on the tie block of the bridge down too. On your one, you have some nice decoration so this would require careful removal and refixing once you take the height down. You can then tidy the rest of the bridge up giving better form.
It's a bit of work and some would say it's not worth the bother, but the guitar is the sum of the parts. All these small things add together to make up how an instrument is. It's quite a pretty guitar too and if you enjoy playing it do what you can to make it as good as.
Best of luck.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 7 2012 13:08:42
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
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RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to Flamingrae) 
Ive been wondering... Instead of filling the holes, would it work if i shaved the tie block down until I could see the holes and then glue a piece of bone to the wood?

I guess bone is harder to wear than rosewood, which is a bit soft and Iam already sticking toothpicks inside the holes (on top of the strings) at the E and D to increase break angle
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 7 2012 13:44:54
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to britguy) 
Resetting the neck on a guitar with a Spanish heel? I don't think this is even possible.

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www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
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I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 7 2012 14:45:16
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to constructordeguitarras) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: constructordeguitarras

Resetting the neck on a guitar with a Spanish heel? I don't think this is even possible.

Of course its possible but it entails removing the back . I've done it few times.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 7 2012 20:03:29
 
britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to Flamingrae) 
quote:

It's a bit of work and some would say it's not worth the bother


Its a very neat idea, and seems like it would help a lot with the string break.

But, a bit too much for my limited lutherie skills I'm afraid. Fixing a loose barn door is about all I can manage these days. . .

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Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 7 2012 22:23:57
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to britguy) 
From the pics, there's room to improve break angle a lot. First you'll have to shave the back of the saddle slot, its already touching the strings. After you clear that area, stop stringing with knots and use simple beads.

You tie a knot at the end of the string, pass it trough the bead and then through the tie block, straight to the peg. You can get away without beads but it will chew the wood and gets unstable when the knots want to get into the tie block.


In case you understood a thing (at least) of what I said and need a better explanation, feel free to ask.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 7 2012 22:33:59
 
estebanana

Posts: 9367
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to britguy) 
There are a few other things to look at for a repair.


First check the neck relief locally between first and 12 frets before you write it off. Hold the string down at the first fret with left hand index finger and then put right pinky on string at 12th fret. Reach with your right index to the middle of the fret board and tap the top of the string you are holding down. There should be a playing card thickness (mas o menos) of relief on a low relief action. If you have the 1.5 to 2 mm of dip between the first and 12th fret, that indicates the neck is bowed above the heel and body join. This is is a good thing in this context and fixable.

If the whole neck has moved forward it is a more difficult fix. The whole neck can move forward a still register a low to medium relief between frets one and twelve because the neck can move at the root where it joins the body. In other words the neck could move forward and still be straight on the upper fret board. This is more difficult to fix.

If you can determine which or how much of a combination of neck issue this guitar has you can determine a course of action.

If the neck is bent between frets 1 and 12 and not set forward from the root you can fix it in two ways.

1. You can take the finger board off and get a little reset back by carefully seeing if the neck will move. Reglue the finger board on with a straightener board and that will take out the bend.

2. Remove finger board and rout a channel down the middle of the finger board and epoxy in a carbon fiber stringer with the neck set in proper plane.

Or both method one and two.

If neck has moved forward lower and not bent, you can take off the back and reset the neck angle by putting the back in in the correct plane. You usually have to take the fingerboard off as well.

You can also take off the finger board and have long wedge of Spanish cedar glued to the face of the neck to take up the 2mm difference; or parse out some thing in between where you plane the fingerboard and add a strip under it. This will make the neck slightly thicker, but also mean you will not have a long strange looking finger board from the side.

If you really like the guitar, I would take the back off given the neck itself is not bent. If the neck is bent I would put in the carbon fiber spar and reglue the finger board. Putting the carbon fiber spar often has the advantage of improving the sound because what was once a vibration damping whippy neck will be made more efficient by stiffening with carbon fiber.

So check the relief and neck straightness to see exactly where and how the neck is set forward or bent. it makes difference for the type of repair that is appropriate. Some necks are prone to bending and this can be fixed really well. If the guitar folded up on itself, still fixable, but much more labor intensive.

There is one more thing you can do in combination with or by itself to back bow a curvy neck. That is compression fretting. You remove frets from an area of the fret board that has a too much bow and replace two or three of them with frets with wider tang which serve to put the top surface of the finger board in compression thus moving it back into plane. Compression fretting is more of an art/craft than a science and works well in conjunction with the other methods when used sparingly.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 8 2012 0:34:25
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to jshelton5040) 
Well, of course anything is possible for us builders. I meant impossible for the repair people who reset necks on "acoustic" guitars. It sounds like more of a rebuild, though. I admire your bravery, John and Estebanana.

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 8 2012 1:14:36
 
estebanana

Posts: 9367
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to constructordeguitarras) 
quote:

I meant impossible for the repair people who reset necks on "acoustic" guitars.


I was just saying to Brit Guy to try to get specific for us which way the neck is messed up. Then the carbon fiber fix is not that bad and it is good for guitars in this situation. Who knows what the 12th Fret in Toronto fixes, or how good they are with Spanish construction. They may have written off something we could fix quite nicely. I've found most steel sting palaces are not versed like we are in Spanish heel guitars.

I also find it amusing that Toronto has a Toro in it. Or that it could be Canadian for Taranto. "Hey what palo is that?" "Toronto, it's from way, way North, Aay." "Oh, Do you also play por Niagraias?" "

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 8 2012 1:33:46
 
estebanana

Posts: 9367
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RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to britguy) 
Ok that was stupid ^

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 8 2012 1:35:01
 
keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to britguy) 
britguy--the guitar you have is a bruno ventura and from the appearance of the carved headstock a higher end. bruno ventura guitars are definitely japanese made around the time a few japanese luthiers sawed ramirez guitars in half to discover the secrets. every now and then they show up at the bay.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 8 2012 2:18:53
 
Flamingrae

 

Posts: 220
Joined: May 19 2009
 

RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to Sr. Martins) 
quote:


Rui Martins   | RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to Flamingrae) 

Ive been wondering... Instead of filling the holes, would it work if i shaved the tie block down until I could see the holes and then glue a piece of bone to the wood?

I guess bone is harder to wear than rosewood, which is a bit soft and Iam already sticking toothpicks inside the holes (on top of the strings) at the E and D to increase break angle
 


I dont see why not but bone might have a tendency to cut the strings. Rosewood gives a bit and is a compromise. It's also good to have some support from the wood in the tie block as I would'nt like to rely on the tension of all the strings going to a piece just stuck on. The other thing I do is drill 1mm holes for the D, B and top E - 1.five for the rest. Sorry, numbers are on the blink.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 8 2012 12:55:05
 
britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to keith) 
quote:

britguy--the guitar you have is a bruno ventura and from the appearance of the carved headstock


WOW! I was hoping someone might recognize the maker of this old guitar from the features and the photos. Now that you mention it, the name does have a familiar ring. I think maybe you are right, and I really appreciate your response.

Do you know if it might be solid wood face, or laminate? Is there any definitive way I can determine this? I always believed it was a laminate, but the 'expert' at " The Twelfth Fret" eyed it for a while and said he was "not sure"???

I attach a few more pics that might help anyone else to recognize the instrument.

Attachment (4)

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Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 8 2012 21:52:00
 
britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to britguy) 
quote:

attach a few more pics that might help anyone else to recognize the instrument.


(What happned to the pics???)









Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (4)

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Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 8 2012 21:55:24
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to britguy) 
quote:

I attach a few more pics that might help anyone else to recognize the instrument.


Iam pretty sure it is a guitar.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 8 2012 21:56:19
 
britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to Sr. Martins) 
quote:

Iam pretty sure it is a guitar.


You are unusually perceptive, amigo. But I meant the maker and/or model.

Thanks anyway. . . Now I know what guitar looks like. . .

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Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 8 2012 22:09:24
 
Doitsujin

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RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to britguy) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: britguy

quote:

Iam pretty sure it is a guitar.


You are unusually perceptive, amigo. But I meant the maker and/or model.




It was this guy, but I don´t know the model though.. ^^



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 8 2012 22:16:43
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to Doitsujin) 
quote:

It was this guy, but I don´t know the model though.. ^^



Well, Iam also pretty sure thats the model as he is the one showing on pics ^^.

The maker remains unknown.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 8 2012 22:24:58
 
britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to Doitsujin) 
quote:

It was this guy


So, that's what "Bruno Ventura" looks like?

No wonder I hid the thing away in a closet for forty years. . .

(Is he a friend of your's Doit???)

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Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 8 2012 22:43:20
 
keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to britguy) 
ok britguy, i did not want to do this. below is a link to the bruno ventura fan club. go to the 70's catalogue and click on the photo of the flamenco guitar and check out the headstock.



http://catoosatrading.com/ventura_guitar.html
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 9 2012 1:50:04
 
britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to keith) 
quote:

below is a link to the bruno ventura fan club. go to the 70's catalogue


Thanks Keith.

Immediately following your initial post I Googled the Ventura site and did indeed locate my guitar clearly illustrated in the '70's catalogue. And according to the description the face is solid spruce, not laminate. Probably the back and sides are laminated?

(Amazing what you can get out of this forum. . . )

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Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 9 2012 13:31:48
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to britguy) 
THats a cool looking guitar. You dont see even cheap guitars these days like that. I think it's worth to save if it actually sounds decent.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 9 2012 15:38:22
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to britguy) 
You should fix the bridge as I mentioned before (back when I was being serious)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 9 2012 16:02:48
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