RE: Neck Angle

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RE: Neck Angle

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keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Neck Angle (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

as a non luthier interested in guitar construction, especially the mysteries of neck angles, it has been a treat to read a thread that has been very instructive--by both the o.p. and responders.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 10 2013 13:43:47

El Burdo

Posts: 632
Joined: Sep. 8 2011

RE: Neck Angle (in reply to keith)

quote:

By the way, my soundhole clamp looks like this (which is why I was wondering how you could brace with yours in place; it is notched to press equally at the harmonic bars and at the brige area):

Ah. Mine is much smaller, just goes laterally across the soundhole reinforcement - 'tightly focussed'. I see what you mean - I reduced mine so I could get it out of the soundhole at the end! Thanks for all your help. I've routed the solera to 2mm with no shims. Aaagh! (anticipatory)

quote:

as a non luthier interested in guitar construction, especially the mysteries of neck angles, it has been a treat to read a thread that has been very instructive--by both the o.p. and responders.

You're welcome Keith, it's been helpful to me in fact and maybe what the forum should be.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 10 2013 22:18:30

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Neck Angle (in reply to El Burdo)

Sounds like you're ready. I hope it goes well.

I think I could get mine out if I left it in until the back is glued on (by first pushing the stove bolt in), but I prefer to take it away when the back is ready to be glued on, and hold everything aligned with a little masking tape at the tail and a clamp on the neck. Clamping the back to the sides--however you do it--will push down the soundboard at the edges, for sure. (I don't like the idea of the stove bolt and the clamp banging around inside the guitar and see no reason for it.)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 10 2013 23:56:25

koenie17

Posts: 438
Joined: Feb. 25 2011
From: España

RE: Neck Angle (in reply to keith)

Very interesting thread! My previous guitars have all been build with a dovetail joint for the neck and a inside mold. My teacher is a violin builder and he is used to build this way. The results have been very good but I really want to try the traditional way to see wich one I like best.
So I´m building my thirst solera, I think I will be routing out the whole bottom part as mencioned in this thread. The only doubts i´m having right now is if the dept of the part being routed is 2mm, should the lower harmonic bar be carved with a 2mm curve as well or a little bit less? so the doming of the soundboard gets slightly smaller closer to the upper harmonic bar(straight) and the fretboard.
I hope you guys can give me some advise on this.

Thanks a lot!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 11 2014 19:33:04

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Neck Angle (in reply to koenie17)

quote:

should the lower harmonic bar be carved with a 2mm curve as well or a little bit less? so the doming of the soundboard gets slightly smaller closer to the upper harmonic bar(straight) and the fretboard.

I suggest making it slightly less to be sure that the center of the harmonic bar doesn't hit the bottom before the ends make contact.

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Ethan Deutsch
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www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 11 2014 20:36:51

koenie17

Posts: 438
Joined: Feb. 25 2011
From: España

RE: Neck Angle (in reply to keith)

Thank you very much Ethan

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 11 2014 21:18:22

El Burdo

Posts: 632
Joined: Sep. 8 2011

RE: Neck Angle (in reply to koenie17)

Hi Koenie17 - I suspect you have far more experience than me, so maybe won't be making the same mistakes, so forgive me !

I liked this idea a lot...but I found there are lots of potential pitfalls.

If you are going to rout out the tapa part of the solera to a certain depth, then build up the bridge part to a precise depth below the flat then...

If the bridge area is built up to a precise depth, say 2mm from the bottomed out part of the solera, which may be 3-4mm say, using go-bars to glue the fan brace into place will force the top down into the lowest part of the solera - and that won't be the bridge area if you've built it up to get a precise depth. It will be nearer the 3-4mm at the lower harmonic bar.
I made the mistake of clamping the sound hole to the solera surface, as it's what I've 'always' done (4 guitars...). I glued the harmonic bars to this bottom. The bottom bar was nearer 3-4mm depth and the top harmonic bar was flat (at level zero) as it was outside the carved out base.
This resulted in a top that was beautifully curved but the bridge was not the highest point on the surface once the guitar was out of the solera. The lower harmonic bar was.

The next time I tried it, I routed the whole base to 2mm- so nothing was lower (or higher on the other side!) than the bridge. I didn't use the clamp through the soundhole.
This made the curveture more as expected with the bridge at an elevated position, but I didn't feel I had any control over the fan braces or the lower harmonic bar. The curveture of the top under the braces depended on the downwards force of the go-bars and the lower harmonic bar was fitted according to the curveture of the top, visually. I didn't force the bar to the solera base as seemed natural - hence, lack of control. The base of the solera had to be ignored.

It may not matter at all, but when there is so much talk of fractions of millimetres, this degree of latitude seems very imprecise. The final picture is not revealed of course until the whole thing is built, sides and back on which is when it behaves as the box you have built.

I may go back to a graduated curved bottom for the next one, though it did seem great idea. Maybe if you only rout out to the lower harmonic bar it may be more controllable.

Just my experience.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 11 2014 22:07:55

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Neck Angle (in reply to El Burdo)

You're welcome, K.

quote:

I made the mistake of clamping the sound hole to the solera surface, as it's what I've 'always' done (4 guitars...). I glued the harmonic bars to this bottom. The bottom bar was nearer 3-4mm depth and the top harmonic bar was flat (at level zero) as it was outside the carved out base.
This resulted in a top that was beautifully curved but the bridge was not the highest point on the surface once the guitar was out of the solera. The lower harmonic bar was.

I've never had that problem although I did build up the belly of the solera with one layer of veneer (0.6 mm). The picture on the previous page that I posted on October 10th shows the bar I use to bolt down the soundboard. It has a slot that goes over the lower harmonic bar so it's really pressing on just the upper harmonic bar and the bridge area.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 12 2014 0:03:54

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Neck Angle (in reply to koenie17)

quote:

Very interesting thread! My previous guitars have all been build with a dovetail joint for the neck and a inside mold. My teacher is a violin builder and he is used to build this way. The results have been very good but I really want to try the traditional way to see wich one I like best.
So I´m building my thirst solera, I think I will be routing out the whole bottom part as mencioned in this thread. The only doubts i´m having right now is if the dept of the part being routed is 2mm, should the lower harmonic bar be carved with a 2mm curve as well or a little bit less? so the doming of the soundboard gets slightly smaller closer to the upper harmonic bar(straight) and the fretboard.
I hope you guys can give me some advise on this.

Thanks a lot!

I used to build with a trad solera with some 2mm hollowing. The last 4 - 5 years I´ve built flat and I like it a lot more.
I built flat, but my guitar end up with a 2mm dome. before it was more. And the result I get now is a more responsive and open sounding instrument.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 12 2014 7:02:16

El Burdo

Posts: 632
Joined: Sep. 8 2011

RE: Neck Angle (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

I built flat, but my guitar end up with a 2mm dome

I can't find your earlier references to this so if you don't mind repeating...

the lateral curve is presumably produced just by the bridge curve and the harmonic bars being curved also?

There is no longitudinal curve from heel to 12th fret?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 12 2014 8:15:20

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Neck Angle (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prominent Critic

Why not - Frankenstein had a bolted on neck . . .

And Hausers! Hauser would even deliver some with interchangeable necks. ( Much to my surprise when I read of it first time. For, until then I would had thought of it as sacrilege in the realm of nylon-stringed guitars.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: constructordeguitarras

I leave the bottoms of bridges flat and they bend a little (particularly the wings) over the doming of the soundboard ...

I think to remember that Tom is doing similar and probably many builders.
However some builders emphasize to be assembling their guitars tension free, which always sounded like of sense to me.

Isn´t it that parts bent into shape will leave the instrument more receptive to humidity fluctuation, and to physical impacts? ( Which is how I imagine things.)
-

Regarding domed tops: I recall one of you builders saying that he would only build flat anymore, since the stiffness of doming would inhibit optimal responisveness of the top. ( I think that was Tom too.)
This in a way sounded only plausible to me as well.

Then, recently I saw a video with Pepe Romero Jr. who said that the higher stability of domed tops would allow him to plane them thinner and thus achieve increased response and more springy pulsation.

Interesting conclusions of luthiers with different views on a detail, while both achieve remarkable results.
FWIW.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 12 2014 10:01:10

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Neck Angle (in reply to keith)

yes, there are many roads that take you to Rome.

If I´m not wrong, TomB curves the bridge slightly (concave) to fit the soundboard. So do I. Funny enough, he and I have many building things in common. He also likes a narrow bridge strap underneath the bridge instead of a bridge plate (correct me if I´m wrong Tom)

Burdo: Its to complicated for me to totally explain the howto. Here you have some hints and the rest you have to experiment (if you feel like). I can say that the harmonic bars are flat. I brace flat and I assemble on a slightly concave solera. This because even though its braced flat, the bridge strap does that the soundboard lifts slightly, so it is already domed some 1,5 - 2mm before assembly. Everything is glued without forcing anything into shape. The brigde strap is VERY light. 12mm wide and 1mm higeh, tapered to zero from the second brace (from the center) all the way out to the sides.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 12 2014 10:31:21

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Neck Angle (in reply to keith)

Thank you for correcting me, Anders.
Indeed, Tom must shape the bridge base to the top radius / I was mixing things up.

And while thinking of it, I think he might have been mentioning tension-free assembly on his old website.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 12 2014 10:59:04

El Burdo

Posts: 632
Joined: Sep. 8 2011

RE: Neck Angle (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

So both your longitudinal and lateral curvature is below the lower harmonic bar. With Constructordeguitarras' solera both curves extend up to the upper one. That must introduce some tension into the top due to the microscopically different alignment of the fan braces. That's interesting. Thanks.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 12 2014 11:33:51

koenie17

Posts: 438
Joined: Feb. 25 2011
From: España

RE: Neck Angle (in reply to El Burdo)

quote:

I suspect you have far more experience than me

This is going to be number my 6th guitar, so I´m still very green in guitarbuilding.
Your advice is highly apreciated! My plan for now is to rout out at a dept of 2mm and give the lower harmonic bar a small curve of about 1mm. I think I will only rout out the lower part of the solera just like you mencioned. So thanks a lot for sharing your experience with me.

quote:

the bridge strap does that the soundboard lifts slightly

I´ve seen pictures of your bridge strap on your blog Anders. Do you glue the strap flat or on your concave solera? My thirst guitar was braced flat but with a slighty curved lower harmonic bar and a flat bridge. I really like the idea of building as tension free as possible.
Just like Anders said before there are many ways that lead to Rome and for now i´m just exploring a little until I find the way I like best.
Many people here in Spain look really surprised when I tell them I build with a dovetail joint(especially builders) but the result is exactly the same. If i´m not mistaking I think fleta used to build that way. I just find that the inside molde gets in the way for cleaning up, I even managed to get some glue between the inside mold and the sides of the guitar and it was a hell of a job to get it loose

So I´ll let you know how things go with the traditional way.
Thanks to all of you guys for all the advice

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 12 2014 11:47:53

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Neck Angle (in reply to El Burdo)

quote:

some tension into the top

I always wonder why some people assume that it is better to build with no tension. First of all, I'm sure this is impossible; as soon as there is a slight change in temperature or humidity, new tensions are created as the wood expands and contracts. Second, consider a simple musical instrument: the hand saw. In order to play it, it is first flexed--tensioned--and then struck. Without flexing, it produces little sound. Third, consider all the raving we hear about European spruce, how stiff it is....

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 12 2014 13:42:55

El Burdo

Posts: 632
Joined: Sep. 8 2011

RE: Neck Angle (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

Yes, I was just referring to the manner the tension is introduced. If the top is built in a dish the struts will bend in a certain way to fit the top. That's probably tension. If you attach the braces when the top is flat, then they are deformed when you curve the top into the solera. Just seems different somehow. But probably isn't.
The only tension I tried to remove is the tension in the sides so they fit without any pressure into the mould.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 12 2014 13:51:51

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Neck Angle (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

Ethan, I've always thought that the top tension; dome or flat top was the issue. And I have found that I get better tone release from a flat top than a domed top under the bridge.

I lift the top a little behind the bridge but this is done using a taper from the bottom block area not under the bridge. Everything remains flat in front of the bridge

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 12 2014 13:52:17

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Neck Angle (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruphus

Thank you for correcting me, Anders.
Indeed, Tom must shape the bridge base to the top radius / I was mixing things up.

And while thinking of it, I think he might have been mentioning tension-free assembly on his old website.

Ruphus

Ruphus, there are many ways to build a top. Pepe Romero Jr. is talking about something that I have already grown past. A domed top will strengthen the top some, to be thinner in its capacity for more volume but I believe it has its down side to some extent.

I don't care for a more boomy quality of the bass' nor the lack of longer sustain in the Rodriguez style domed tops. I took this from a Rodriguez flat top scenario, as well. I happen to like the flat top tone better.

And to Anders mentioning my like for thinner bridge straps: I currently use a Reyes style strap but builders should make their own choice for what works best in any given situation.

And I actually curve the bridge a little and glue it to a flat top.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 12 2014 14:12:13

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Neck Angle (in reply to keith)

Now that you mention it, I remember how you said that the curved bridge was the only part that would convex the top a little bit.

Pepe appears to be getting along mighty well with his concept though. The GSI recording of his flamenca impressed me a lot, and his father´s claim that there was no better builder than his son could be beyond just parental bias. ( After all he is throwing in the whole of his life´s expertise and a considerable instrumental experience behind it.)
However that be, the clip sounded really unusually promissing with those bold and round yet perfectly separate notes. Me thinks: "fat tone".

I suspect the man to be building some special stuff.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 12 2014 16:35:35

Ruphus

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 12 2014 16:37:03

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Neck Angle (in reply to Ruphus)

Far be it from me to diss another builder's guitar. I wish Pepe all the best in his quest for excellence. After all, he has had some good teachers.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 12 2014 18:50:00

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Neck Angle (in reply to koenie17)

quote:

I´ve seen pictures of your bridge strap on your blog Anders. Do you glue the strap flat or on your concave solera?

I just find that the inside molde gets in the way for cleaning up, I even managed to get some glue between the inside mold and the sides of the guitar and it was a hell of a job to get it loose

Everything is glued flat....

This with the inside mold getting glued to the sides, happens violin building as well. When building violins, you glue the inner linings as well before taking the sides of the mold. Its normal to vax the inner molde before working on the sides.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2014 6:48:09