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RE: online lessons; what's missing?   You are logged in as Guest
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akatune

 

Posts: 188
Joined: Mar. 28 2008
 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 21 2012 19:29:27
 
Munin

 

Posts: 595
Joined: Sep. 30 2008
From: Hong Kong

RE: online lessons; what's missing? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Intereting to me...most students I have are lower level getting the basics of compas, techniques, etc. Advanced students are more rare and specifics can be looked at. Couple of things that raise eyebrow for me with student requests:

NO falsestas, bored of falsetas....? Flamenco guitar is made of that. Even advanced students are looking for never ending more falsetas to add to the bag they carry around and pull form as needed.

More interesting variations on compas....well, not sure how just basic compas could be boring...most often as I look around compas is THE MAIN issue all students have and trying to develop. More than technique or speed just basic compas and having a good sound feel and tempo. If you are bored doing a basic compas something is wrong.

Compas variations become more interesting as you investigate what is really and truly involved with accompanyment, which saddly can't learn completely or efficiently with only a guitar teacher. But in small doses, you don't go from doing basic time keeper to tomatito over night. As Mark said, some hours in dance class gets you on track much quicker than a one on one lesson of a teacher trying to spend time breaking down and doing super slow repeat of a single compas variation. I comes much much easier once you are a good time keeper to begin with and can try new things on the fly without losing the beat. This ties in with why I don't recommend learning flamenco as "pieces" or complete guitar solos.

finally music theory as applied to flamenco is fun as analysis, but understand MOST maestros and composers of the best famenco have no clue about it at all. I see no need why lower level students struggling with compas would need to waste time learning theory as so much more important disciplines need to be focused on at that stage of learning. Totally different if you are talking advanced experienced accompanists that want understand more of the big picture about what they ALREADY can do. That is a very humble and appropriate approach....but a student learning this FIRST is missing out on the proper discpline required to actually get to a high level in flamenco.


Ok my 2 cents. I would want todd to show Soniquete by paco, nice and slow for me.


I wanna address your points as they almost completely reference the ones I brought up.

First, falsetas. They are important, which is why there are already two dozen sites dealing with them. I just don't see the need for yet another site that teaches 50 falsetas 45 of which I personally don't find interesting or will not learn. As far as sheer playing material goes, there's Jason's site, Jose Tanaka's site, the Encuentro DVDs, the La Sonanta DVDs, other DVDs, countless tab books, etc.

What would be great would be if Todd taught some falsetas by modern players but I'm not sure how that works out in terms of copyright.

As far as theory goes, it depends how you interpret that term. Maybe it's true that most composers don't know much theory (though I highly doubt that when it comes to players like Antonio Rey, Canizares etc). But even then, when composing, they clearly utilize chords, structures and patterns that many people wouldn't know how to use by themselves.

I think in general you're looking at this from a beginner's perspective...yes, for beginners technique and compas are important above everything else..but the point is there is already TONS of beginner material out there anyway...so if Todd made a site, having it aimed at intermediate players and above would actually be more interesting in my opinion.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 21 2012 21:31:16
 
mrMagenta

Posts: 942
Joined: Oct. 25 2006
From: Sweden

RE: online lessons; what's missing? (in reply to akatune

Ok. You asked for it!

Long term mentorship. I don't know if that can be done online, but it's what I would like the most. Especially from someone I respect and look up to.

As for content, I wouldn't be looking for any old falseta that someone has in store, I would like to bring my own material, or at least have a teacher choose specific material for me based on what he/she thinks I need the most. Lessons don't necessarily all have to be real-time.. perhaps a few skypes to get a feel for the student, and then have students submit material, and the teacher reply, then if something needs real-time, book a time for a skype session. It's way more work for an online teacher than just having a few videos up on a site, but that's what would make me sign up for lessons.

Since I developed tendonitis in my left wrist, I can't be like a vacuum cleaner and suck up anything that is thrown at me, so I would very much welcome a super pragmatic and efficcient approach. Everything would need to be geared toward music that is going to be performed live.. not by some general intermediate player, but by me specifically. That would mean working on the material that I'm developing and practicing right now. The focus would be on musicality and making the most out things, spotting weak stuff, be it technique or arrangement/composition/groove whatever. I don't mind being pushed though, not at all, as long as the teacher and I can be confident that the content of the lessons can go straight into my playing, without years of wrestling the virtuosic specifics of some big name players personal style (I would love that too! but I just don't have the luxury to do that at this time).

This is me thinking freely, perhaps not realistically.


ps. this should have been a reply to the original thread, I pressed the wrong reply box
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 21 2012 22:14:01
 
machopicasso

 

Posts: 990
Joined: Nov. 27 2010
 

RE: online lessons; what's missing? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

More interesting variations on compas....well, not sure how just basic compas could be boring... If you are bored doing a basic compas something is wrong.


I suspect the motivation for "more interesting variations on compas" is not really about compas per se. Rather, I suspect the student is looking for variations of what to play within a given compas.

Many online tutorials only give one example of what to play in a standard palo. If you're a beginning student; have mastered that example; and don't yet know what else to play, or aren't clear about how to integrate additional material; then you can feel at a loss as to how to branch out.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 22 2012 8:26:37
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: online lessons; what's missing? (in reply to Munin

quote:

As far as theory goes, it depends how you interpret that term. Maybe it's true that most composers don't know much theory (though I highly doubt that when it comes to players like Antonio Rey, Canizares etc). But even then, when composing, they clearly utilize chords, structures and patterns that many people wouldn't know how to use by themselves.


I am familiar with a few different guitar disciplines...they each have their own "theory" or musical structure. There is a general misconception that modern and advanced players have some sort of understanding outside of their own discipline simply because they produce sophisticated SOUNDING music. It's not true in most cases, and the mistake made is to not properly investigate fully the traditional repertoire from where the modern players have evolved from. Perfect example, Antonio Rey or Cañizares play the same tunes as PDL has done with the guitar trio. When antonio or Cañizares play those tunes, they use the same voicings as they "learned" from Paco, same as Paco learned from his background or evolved on his own based on his background. When Paco plays the same tune next Mclaughlin, Mclaughlin used totally different voicings as per his own discipline. There is no need for students way below theses levels to assume a need to understand theory concepts as per OTHER genres and try to apply them to flamenco, in hopes to achieve the "understanding" of an Antonio Rey. They are better off simply studying the traditional approaches...same as any beginning student of flamenco.

And about intermediate vs beginner material. I am not a big advocate of "easy compas" beginner material. I think "basic compas" is different, and refers to the same "base" that Sabicas or Tomatito are both familiar with and use at all times. In most cases the basics are personal as per which ever guitarist or perhaps their style or region or town or family they come from, but the idea that there are graduating levels is misleading. There are, but I consider EVERYONE a beginner until they can set themselves up with a base of compas of some sort. And that includes hot shot shredders, seasone professional rock jazz or classical guitarists, or noobs that only know C F and G. They are ALL the same until they demonstrate an understanding of the base compas. From there it is possible to build and learn via the FLAMENCO DISCIPLINE...that means regardess of how good they were in an other genre, they have to start and follow the same process as any other beginner....or else they will run into trouble along the way...trust me.

Ricardo

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 22 2012 16:38:54

ToddK

 

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
 

RE: online lessons; what's missing? (in reply to akatune

quote:

I am familiar with a few different guitar disciplines...they each have their own "theory" or musical structure. There is a general misconception that modern and advanced players have some sort of understanding outside of their own discipline simply because they produce sophisticated SOUNDING music. It's not true in most cases, and the mistake made is to not properly investigate fully the traditional repertoire from where the modern players have evolved from. Perfect example, Antonio Rey or Cañizares play the same tunes as PDL has done with the guitar trio. When antonio or Cañizares play those tunes, they use the same voicings as they "learned" from Paco, same as Paco learned from his background or evolved on his own based on his background. When Paco plays the same tune next Mclaughlin, Mclaughlin used totally different voicings as per his own discipline. There is no need for students way below theses levels to assume a need to understand theory concepts as per OTHER genres and try to apply them to flamenco, in hopes to achieve the "understanding" of an Antonio Rey. They are better off simply studying the traditional approaches...same as any beginning student of flamenco.

And about intermediate vs beginner material. I am not a big advocate of "easy compas" beginner material. I think "basic compas" is different, and refers to the same "base" that Sabicas or Tomatito are both familiar with and use at all times. In most cases the basics are personal as per which ever guitarist or perhaps their style or region or town or family they come from, but the idea that there are graduating levels is misleading. There are, but I consider EVERYONE a beginner until they can set themselves up with a base of compas of some sort. And that includes hot shot shredders, seasone professional rock jazz or classical guitarists, or noobs that only know C F and G. They are ALL the same until they demonstrate an understanding of the base compas. From there it is possible to build and learn via the FLAMENCO DISCIPLINE...that means regardess of how good they were in an other genre, they have to start and follow the same process as any other beginner....or else they will run into trouble along the way...trust me.

Ricardo


Ricardo, you know so much stuff, and you have so much great material,
i think YOU should be doing online lessons.

I could set up the site, shoot and edit the video, audio, write out tabs, etc.. All you have to do is show up at my house once a week for a session.

I think we could blow Jason's and Tanaka's site's out of the water.

Better material, better video quality, better audio quality, and list goes on.
I know you have limited time, but it sure would be cool.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 22 2012 17:55:31
 
chapman_g

 

Posts: 227
Joined: Apr. 11 2007
 

RE: online lessons; what's missing? (in reply to ToddK

Customer number 1 signing up. Just tell me when you guys launch.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 22 2012 17:59:09
 
Don Dionisio

 

Posts: 360
Joined: Feb. 16 2011
From: Durham, NC

RE: online lessons; what's missing? (in reply to akatune

Todd,
Great idea! Keep at him, I'll sign up too.
I bet some of us that have studied with Ricardo
have some good quality videos. I have some nice
ones of him demonstrating cante accompaniment
for solea and bulerias. I wouldn't release them without
Ricardo's permission though.
Please keep us posted as to your progress either way.
Thanks.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 22 2012 18:11:28
 
val

 

Posts: 800
Joined: Apr. 4 2007
From: London

RE: online lessons; what's missing? (in reply to Don Dionisio

quote:

Great idea! Keep at him, I'll sign up too

I second that
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 22 2012 20:06:15
 
Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: online lessons; what's missing? (in reply to val

you saying on the other thread how Kevin killed your thread then i come back to your thread post because i dont want YOU to feel ignored...now i feel like the dickh*ead cause u ignoring mine...good one flo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 23 2012 9:00:17
 
machopicasso

 

Posts: 990
Joined: Nov. 27 2010
 

RE: online lessons; what's missing? (in reply to ToddK

quote:

Ricardo, you know so much stuff, and you have so much great material,
i think YOU should be doing online lessons.

I could set up the site, shoot and edit the video, audio, write out tabs, etc.. All you have to do is show up at my house once a week for a session.


That's an excellent idea. The current online offerings don't admit of much in the way of collaborative endeavors. Aside from giving Ricardo a more expansive forum for communicating his extensive knowledge of flamenco, I'd be curious to see the result of you guys collaborating.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 23 2012 10:23:09

ToddK

 

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
 

RE: online lessons; what's missing? (in reply to Florian

quote:

cause u ignoring mine


Hey Flo, which thread do you mean? I missed it!?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 23 2012 19:02:06
 
kudo

Posts: 2064
Joined: Sep. 3 2009
 

RE: online lessons; what's missing? (in reply to ToddK

quote:

Ricardo, you know so much stuff, and you have so much great material,
i think YOU should be doing online lessons.

I could set up the site, shoot and edit the video, audio, write out tabs, etc.. All you have to do is show up at my house once a week for a session.

I think we could blow Jason's and Tanaka's site's out of the water.

Better material, better video quality, better audio quality, and list goes on.
I know you have limited time, but it sure would be cool.

CUSTOMER/STUDENT #5 IS SIGNING UP !!! PLEASE LET ME KNOW WHAT HAPPENS, I AM VERY INTERESTED!!!

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 23 2012 19:39:34
 
n85ae

 

Posts: 877
Joined: Sep. 7 2006
 

RE: online lessons; what's missing? (in reply to akatune

If I sign up for a lessons website, this is the one I'll be joining.

Jeff
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 23 2012 21:31:18
 
Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: online lessons; what's missing? (in reply to ToddK

quote:

Hey Flo, which thread do you mean? I missed it!?


last post on the first page of this thread ...but its cool man, maybe you missed it

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 24 2012 8:02:19
Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to akatune

[Deleted by Admins]
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 29 2012 20:31:09

ToddK

 

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
 

RE: online lessons; what's missing? (in reply to Guest

quote:

Todd,
Munin brings up some really valid points, there is no resource out there (absolutely zero) that deals with flamenco theory, harmonizations etc in a simple manner.

If you can come up with a way to break it down in simple (theory for dummies) style and speak in normal english not the hyperbole that theorists get into then you will have a niche that will work well.

Also compas variations would be great, by this I mean the strumming changes and patterns .... again something that is never taught. For example take a moraito bulerias he has so many compas strumming patterns ... but no one breaks that down and teaches it, its always falsetas and more falsetas .... boring.

You don't have to worry about Tanaka, he doesn't update his site or respond to emails anymore.


Great points! I agree completely. Especially about the strumming/compas.

Again, you've all given me great feedback, i really appreciate it. :)
TK

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 29 2012 21:29:53
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