RE: Barbero & Fernández

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Jeff Highland

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: Barbero & Fernández (in reply to Pedoviejo)

quote:

olde fart Highlander (and he’s about to bounce out and say, “Gotcha, Yank! I’m a Lowlander!” Lucky I ducked.)

Highlander, lowlander, old fart whatever call me what you want, I won't say Gotcha Yank cause I are one too.

My point was not really about factory guitars but only that as a guitar maker you want to get up in the morning and think "i am going to make a damn fine guitar today" rather than "Im going to make a good guitar today but it will never quite measure up to that thirties martin,'59 les paul, or 50s spanish masters guitar or whatever."

We all stand on the shoulders of these pioneers but should not be afraid to innovate and develop ourselves

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 11 2012 3:29:01

BarkellWH

Posts: 3459
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Barbero & Fernández (in reply to BarkellWH)

I don't know if this practice would qualify as "factory-made," but apparently there is considerable evidence that even top-of-the-line guitars, such as Conde, are often made by Valencia makers. Apparently Conde (in this case) provides the specs, the Valencia maker produces the instrument according to the specs, and a Conde label is put on.

I have heard this from sources I consider reliable, but I have no real evidence. Can anyone confirm whether or not this "outsourcing" is the case, and would a Conde so-made be considered a "factory-made" instrument?

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 11 2012 10:58:11

Morante

Posts: 2184
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Barbero & Fernández (in reply to estebanana)

There is an interesting article in "Guitarrista" which compares Bernie Marsden´s original 1959 Les Paul (estimated value 370,000 euros) with his PRS made signature model, which used the Les Paul as a pattern (900 euros).

Unsurprisingly, the panel thought the PRS was a great guitar and cheap, but became all misty-eyed over the Gibson.

However Bernie revealed that he has long since stopped using the Gibson on stage and does not even keep it in his house, for reasons of security.

This certainly supports the view that a touring professional has a specific point of view.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 11 2012 11:11:03

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Barbero & Fernández (in reply to BarkellWH)

quote:

I don't know if this practice would qualify as "factory-made," but apparently there is considerable evidence that even top-of-the-line guitars, such as Conde, are often made by Valencia makers. Apparently Conde (in this case) provides the specs, the Valencia maker produces the instrument according to the specs, and a Conde label is put on.

Yeah this is old news and a "secret" that pretty much everyone knows. I know one of the makers but don't know how many other there are or which models are actually being farmed out. Now that the brothers have split, I don't know if this is still common practice or if they are each just making their own instruments now.

_____________________________

Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 11 2012 16:24:16

Pedoviejo

Posts: 59
Joined: Dec. 12 2003

RE: Barbero & Fernández (in reply to Jeff Highland)

quote:

Highlander, lowlander, old fart whatever call me what you want, I won't say Gotcha Yank cause I are one too.

AHH! This is what I meant by things flying about once you send a post. "Olde fart" wasn't directed at you, Jeff, but at Ron M (see above "Ye Olde Farte") who was responding to Estebanana. I may have ducked but apparently I also missed

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 11 2012 16:28:29

Pedoviejo

Posts: 59
Joined: Dec. 12 2003

RE: Barbero & Fernández (in reply to BarkellWH)

quote:

I have heard this from sources I consider reliable, but I have no real evidence. Can anyone confirm whether or not this "outsourcing" is the case, and would a Conde so-made be considered a "factory-made" instrument?

Like TANuñez says, this is “old news” and has been kicked around quite a bit. What a factory guitar is depends upon how far you extend the term “factory.” Are Ramirez’s factory made? At various times in the Ramirez shop you might have one guy producing necks, another producing sides, etc., so that might or might not qualify. I don’t know where Conde’s are outsourced now or where they were outsourced in the past (I heard they used a Valencia “factory” shop, which in the old days was everyone’s main source for cheap guitars), but they have to be by simple logic: One builder can only produce so many guitars a year. Arcángel’s max was about 24, and that was when he was working continuously throughout the year. I think averages are between 15 and 25 for individual luthiers working more or less full time. And that’s why if a luthier produces anything less than professional grade guitars, I very sincerely doubt that he’s producing them himself – it just wouldn’t be worth his time.

Anyway, at least Ramirez always gave notice to the purchaser: As you know, for top models the master builder’s initials were on the heel, lower models were designated by a different label, and guitars from outside the shop were likewise clearly designated as “built for” the Ramirez shop. In the old days even Arcángel would have Valencia guitars in the front of the shop with a round label stating that they were made in Valencia “para casa Arcángel Fernández”. (These and similar guitars from other famous shops you can find popping up on Ebay from time to time with a seller asking some ridiculous price simply because it has the famous builder’s name in it.) My gripe about Conde has always been their lack of notice. They always did have “seconds” clearly marked as such, but then there were those top models with their main label – and signature – inside that were made who knows where. My opinion is that you cross the line when you sign your own label and stick it in a guitar made by someone else without giving notice that it was made by someone else – EVEN IF it is a very fine, mostly hand-made instrument, because, for better or for worse, and with or without any rational basis, names can have great value, the impetus for their protection under trademark and copyright laws. How else can the modern Conde shop put a $20K retail price sticker on a “special edition” guitar when, I would submit, you can order/purchase an instrument that is just as good, and may well be superior, from any of the luthiers here on the Foro for a fraction of that price? (And I definitely support purchasing guitars from worthy luthiers as opposed to buying a name tag – even though that may not be sound advice for someone who is solely a collector-investor.)

Even under Roman law, for “caveat emptor” to apply, there had to first be disclosure. Here’s the definition of “fraud” in the Louisiana Civil Code, which is very similar to the French and Spanish codes since it was derived from them: “Fraud is a misrepresentation or a suppression of the truth made with the intention either to obtain an unjust advantage for one party or to cause a loss or inconvenience to the other. Fraud may also result from silence or inaction.” You judge.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 11 2012 21:19:30

RTC

Posts: 667
Joined: Aug. 20 2008

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jun. 12 2012 3:32:54

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 12 2012 3:24:38

BarkellWH

Posts: 3459
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Barbero & Fernández (in reply to Pedoviejo)

quote:

What a factory guitar is depends upon how far you extend the term “factory.” Are Ramirez’s factory made? At various times in the Ramirez shop you might have one guy producing necks, another producing sides, etc., so that might or might not qualify.

This brings up an interesting question: We use terms like "luthier-made" and "factory-made" as if we all have a common understanding of their definitions. Your example of Ramirez's "factory" above, with each component of the instrument (neck, sides, back, etc.) produced by a different individual, certainly employs a division of labor that has the earmarks of a "factory" to me. But would a top-of-the-line Ramirez or Conde, produced in that manner, be considered a "factory-made" guitar or not?

I think we can all agree that guitars made personally by Marcelo Barbero, Arcangel Fernandez, Gerundino Fernandez, and Manuel Reyes (as well as Foro members who are luthiers) definitely qualify as "luthier'made" instruments. But how far can one stretch that definition before it falls into "factory-made" instruments?

Anyone care to hazard a comment or observation?

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 12 2012 17:54:57

Morante

Posts: 2184
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Barbero & Fernández (in reply to BarkellWH)

quote:

But would a top-of-the-line Ramirez or Conde, produced in that manner, be considered a "factory-made" guitar or not?

Hola Bill

In his book, Ramirez was proud of his apprentice system. A minion had to present two perfectly constructed guitars before he could aspire to be a master (one of those whose initials appear on Ramirez labels). Top of the line Ramirez were made by these people.

My friend José Romero was one of these maestros and you can see it in the meticulous way he works. He told me that left because he could not tolerate that kind of discipline and wanted to do his own experiments. Still, the master guitars of Ramirez are great instruments, which not only sound well, but being well constructed and using good wood, are reliable. But very expensive.

I have also been told that some of the top Condes are made by ex Ramirez maestros, but do not wish to involve myself in that controversy

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 12 2012 19:00:31

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Barbero & Fernández (in reply to BarkellWH)

If the label of the Ramirez guitar says "Estudio" it was made elsewhere (not in the Ramirez shop) to the specs provided by the Ramirez folks. The guitars made by the folks in the Ramirez shop are identified by the labels. They are very clear about what is made inside the shop and outside the shop--or at least that is what they claim on their website. Conde on the other hand is known for their smoke and mirrors as their labels suggest ALL of their guitars are made by the Conde clan. Of course this is quite impossible given there are only so many Conde folks to build all of those guitars. Rumor has it some Conde guitars may be more Chinese than Spanish.

As to what constitutes a "factory" guitar. From my observations a factory guitar is a guitar built to a blue print with little modification away from the blueprint--that is, there is very little human input (read time which means money) to work with the wood.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 12 2012 20:44:59

estebanana

Posts: 9367
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jun. 19 2012 16:11:57

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 12 2012 21:12:21

Ricardo

Posts: 14837
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Barbero & Fernández (in reply to Jeff Highland)

In a magazine interview in english from around 2000 ish...the conde bros at felipe V address were asked about all the models. They claimed that together the two brothers produced about 3 guitars a month claiming many different guitars were in different stages of completion at every moment....only the A model instruments. they admit the B model instruments (unsigned) were made outside by others but would not say who that was. I long assumed Ricardo Sanchis Carpio and sons were lending a big hand with even the A models....but I have no proof and at closest comparison of many examples I am not fully convinced of my own theory. It could also be an issue with finishing...perhaps the same people that do the finishing do both builders guitars hence so many similar details?? In the end I find it hard to believe that I can't find an exact match of quality between a comparatively chearper A model sanchis carpio or sanchi lopez that proves to my hands and ears that the same people or person also built the Conde A models I am all too familiar with. Adilide also from valencia were similar to Conde negras...but only a guess by my hands and ears. Back to back, the conde was still superior....and I promise I was objective as I could be. In fact I hoped to find the true maker so that I could point students that direction that were into conde but had not the dinero.

The only proof i have of anything was a lower end Conde blanca from atocha address with a stamp on the sound board "Ricardo sanchis Carpio"...yet the detailing and rosette are the same as carpio...only the head cut is different. Not proof of much more than that Carpio does in fact build for atocha...but the prices are pretty much equivalent there. Very different then insinuating that a 6-10K Conde A from Felipe V address circa 1990-2010 was assembled in valencia the same. Even the expensive top line Carpio special order guitars which I played 3 perhaps, are NOT the same calibur as the A line condes. If he was building condes...wouldn't build his own model BETTER than that??? Of course I played some bad condes as everyone else has, but since we don't have proof I have to conclude that the valencia builders have only copied the design ideas and hence the similarities. Only way is to commission a guitar from the builder (a conde brother) and hang out as the guitar is constructed to the final stage then compare it to others. I have heard both theories...they built tons of A models by hand...and they built ZERO guitars at all. If the truth lies in between these extremes, which guitars are which...the GOOD condes or the BAD condes?

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 18 2012 18:45:39

estebanana

Posts: 9367
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jun. 19 2012 16:15:04

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 18 2012 18:55:46

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Barbero & Fernández (in reply to Ricardo)

Hola Ricardo, was at a flamenco dancer's party last night (Yumi la Rosa), and a guitarist there, young guy named Alex, asked me if I had heard of you. I guess he ran into you in Sanlucar, said you're Nunez's "main prodigy", and considers you one of the top flamenco players in the USA and who he would like to study with.

I'm sure you get compliments all the time, but thought I'd pass on a little "props" to you. Take care, Miguel/Mike

_____________________________

Connect with me on Facebook, all the cool kids are doing it.
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Arizona Wedding Music Guitar

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 18 2012 19:43:22

Ricardo

Posts: 14837
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Barbero & Fernández (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

Hola Ricardo, was at a flamenco dancer's party last night (Yumi la Rosa), and a guitarist there, young guy named Alex, asked me if I had heard of you. I guess he ran into you in Sanlucar, said you're Nunez's "main prodigy", and considers you one of the top flamenco players in the USA and who he would like to study with.

I'm sure you get compliments all the time, but thought I'd pass on a little "props" to you. Take care, Miguel/Mike

Thanks. Tell him to hit me up on my website via sign up for skype lessons.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 18 2012 19:57:46

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Barbero & Fernández (in reply to Pedoviejo)

Paco de Lucia said, "Los genios robaron de todos."

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 19 2012 3:48:39

johnguitar

Posts: 208
Joined: Jan. 10 2006

RE: Barbero & Fernández (in reply to Jeff Highland)

When a guitar maker starts out he/she might make some really poor guitars. Depending on many factors he might make 50 or 100 before he/she starts to make something that really shines. At that point any comparison between factory and luthier made guitars is ridiculous, the luthier made guitar is better in all ways as a tool to make music.

John Ray
Granada

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 19 2012 6:17:45