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Spruce Top Or Cedar Top   You are logged in as Guest
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Kalo

 

Posts: 400
Joined: Jan. 25 2011
 

Spruce Top Or Cedar Top 

Hi Guys,

I just need advise...

If you were getting a flamenco guitar built...

What choice of tops would one choose?

Spruce or Cedar???

My last guitar was a Student Franisco Navarro...

It had Spruce...

Your opinions are much appreciated...

Thanks,

Kalo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 5 2012 2:55:04
 
KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: Spruce Top Or Cedar Top (in reply to Kalo

Hi Kalo,

You may find lots of interesting info in some of these threads.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/searchpro.asp?topicreply=both&message=both&timeframe=%3E&timefilter=0&top=300&criteria=AND&minRank=10&language=single&phrase=spruce++cedar

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 5 2012 3:44:54
 
Shawn Brock

 

Posts: 271
Joined: Sep. 19 2011
From: Louisville KY

RE: Spruce Top Or Cedar Top (in reply to Kalo

I would say the first question is who's the maker? Oh, and are we talking negra or blanca?

So here's my .02 on cedar... In the days when I focused mostly on classical and not flamenco, I hated most cedar top guitars. For my taste they were just to dark! Now that I have said that, let me say that I respect cedar a lot more in flamencos than I ever did in classicals... I respect it so much that the blanca I play 90 percent of the time is cedar.

The thing I hated so much about a lot of cedar classicals was the warmth in the trebles. I have noticed that a well made cedar top flamenco don't have this problem

I would say this, if you are in doubt, go with spruce, but remember that some great flamencos are being made with cedar. If you look around on youtube and here in the classifieds and luthier sections, you will find some videos of some cedar top guitars. Some makers are so good at working with cedar that you can hardly tell by listening to their guitars that they aren't made from spruce. They maintain a good bright tone. Some good cedar tops that I have heard in person are, Stephen Faulk blanca, Salvador Castillo blanca and negra, Glenn Canin blanca and negra, and a Reyes blanca. Also some of the Bernal's with cedar sound good if your not looking to spend a lot of money.

You can watch Jason McGuire and Glenn Canin on youtube doing a comparison video with a cedar blanca, a spruce blanca, a spruce negra and a cedar negra. Maybe that would be worth checking out...

I have no experience with any Navarro flamencos with cedar, so I wouldn't know what to say there. Its my opinion that most any good maker can make a good guitar out of either wood. So in the end it depends on who you choose and how much you are going to spend. I wasn't looking for a cedar top when I bought my Castillo blanca, but I'm sure glad I did! A time or 2 I have thought of selling it, but I just don't think I could ever part with it...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 5 2012 3:55:19
 
Kalo

 

Posts: 400
Joined: Jan. 25 2011
 

RE: Spruce Top Or Cedar Top (in reply to Kalo

quote:

I would say the first question is who's the maker? Oh, and are we talking negra or blanca?


Hi Shawn,

Well, I am going to have Andy Culpepper built my guitar.

I would consider having blanca...

I looked on the link that KMM177 suggested and LOTS of info on it to make my head spin...

I am wondering what is more popular for dancing and as well as performing...

Thanks,

Kalo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 5 2012 4:15:39
 
Pgh_flamenco

 

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: Spruce Top Or Cedar Top (in reply to Kalo

Cedar is soft and if you miss the golpeador you'll have a deep nail mark.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 5 2012 4:27:41
 
Kalo

 

Posts: 400
Joined: Jan. 25 2011
 

RE: Spruce Top Or Cedar Top (in reply to Kalo

Hmm, thanks Pgh_Flamenco!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 5 2012 4:33:22
 
keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Spruce Top Or Cedar Top (in reply to Kalo

kalo--sabicas' ramirez which he played for many years was a cedar top--or so says those who knew of that guitar. i once had a ramirez flamenco that i swore had a spruce top but was, in reality, a cedar top.

the only thing lacking with cedar tops are the wack-job stories about harvesting during the full moon, dancing naked under the new moon before felling the tree, etc. there are some great lunar stories out there surpassed only by the so-called last cypress from the alhambra stories and the royal spanish cypress marketing schemes.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 5 2012 16:00:28
 
Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: Spruce Top Or Cedar Top (in reply to Kalo

John Shelton has the best story about Cedar I have heard. He has a bunch of old growth that was blown over by the Mt St Helen’s volcano blast.

To his credit he has never played up that fact. To him it’s just good wood
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 5 2012 17:23:01
 
sig

 

Posts: 296
Joined: Nov. 7 2007
From: Wisconsin

RE: Spruce Top Or Cedar Top (in reply to Kalo

Kalo,
I have Culpepper Blanca with a Cedar top. Great instrument but as pgh_flamenco says, Cedar is soft plus its french polished so I don't think that's helping either, of course neither is my poor technique :) Since I use my instrument for accompanying and gigs it has gotten dinged up a bit more than my Burguet Spruce top Blanca did in the past. My fellow guitarist in our group has a Navarro student model and loves my Culpepper and you can certainly tell the difference in sound and playability, but frankly I think his Navarro is a pretty decent guitar for the money...

Trust me you'll love your Culpepper guitar, Cedar or Spruce no matter which one you choose he builds a wonderful instrument for the money and I don't think you can go wrong. Don't be afraid to go for the Cedar, to me its more about how the luthier builds it rather than just the choice of top wood.
Sig--
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 5 2012 21:15:51
 
bursche

Posts: 1182
Joined: Jul. 19 2007
From: Frankfurt, Germany

RE: Spruce Top Or Cedar Top (in reply to sig

I love the cedar sound of my guitar but I really think that any well made guitar gets a good tone from any suitable tonewood. When I try out guitars I don't give a **** on the matrials, it has to feel good and that's it, just never buy an instrument you didn't ever play before except you want to make some bucks trading it.

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Visit me on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRaGz6Lf-Uz0HxUv-dGQFLQ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 5 2012 22:06:40
 
Kalo

 

Posts: 400
Joined: Jan. 25 2011
 

RE: Spruce Top Or Cedar Top (in reply to Kalo

quote:

[Kalo,
I have Culpepper Blanca with a Cedar top. Great instrument but as pgh_flamenco says, Cedar is soft plus its french polished so I don't think that's helping either, of course neither is my poor technique :) Since I use my instrument for accompanying and gigs it has gotten dinged up a bit more than my Burguet Spruce top Blanca did in the past. My fellow guitarist in our group has a Navarro student model and loves my Culpepper and you can certainly tell the difference in sound and playability, but frankly I think his Navarro is a pretty decent guitar for the money...

Trust me you'll love your Culpepper guitar, Cedar or Spruce no matter which one you choose he builds a wonderful instrument for the money and I don't think you can go wrong. Don't be afraid to go for the Cedar, to me its more about how the luthier builds it rather than just the choice of top wood.
Sig-- /quote]

Hi Sig,

And thank for your comment. I had a Student Navarro and yeah for the money it was nice, but, I am now moving up to the next leve. It's great to know that you really LOVE your Culpepper guitar.

I am seriously, thinking of going with SPRUCE, my friend who grew up on Sabicas loves Cedar, but, being that Navarro was Spruce, I think I am going to stick to what I have....

I am thinking of having the nut width at 51 mm, 650 mm scale, and the thing that is nice about Andy's car is the spatial of his strings via the bridge. I belive he builts it at 57mm which is narrower then most that luthiers built....



quote:

love the cedar sound of my guitar but I really think that any well made guitar gets a good tone from any suitable tonewood. When I try out guitars I don't give a **** on the matrials, it has to feel good and that's it, just never buy an instrument you didn't ever play before except you want to make some bucks trading it.


Hi bursche,

I agree with you that one should never buy an instrument without playing it, but, Andy doesn't have any premade instruments for me to try and being that I going to tweak just a few things for my SMALL, hands (I am a girl playing flamenco guitarist) I don't think I can go wrong....

Thanks for all your cool responses!

Kalo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 5 2012 22:13:49
 
Shawn Brock

 

Posts: 271
Joined: Sep. 19 2011
From: Louisville KY

RE: Spruce Top Or Cedar Top (in reply to Kalo

Hey Kalo, I would say talk with Andy about it. I'm sure he will help you choose the best direction. He's a high quality builder, and I want to get one of his guitars myself...

Now that your head has been put to spinning by all of the information, lets see if I can be of any help. It seems that if your use to/ liked the sound of your spruce Navarro, I would stick with that. If you had played a few good cedar flamencos and fell in love with the sound, than my advice may would be different. As it is though you may be best off with spruce. After all, you already know that you like the tone of spruce.

Cedar will take more damage from the nails than spruce, but that's just a part of life. A spruce top will also take dings easier than anyone would wish. I always say that on a new guitar the first scratch is about the worse feeling you can have. Once that first scratch is on though, you can finely loosen up and play. After all you already have one scratch, what's another.

I know Andy had a video of a cedar guitar he built a month or 2 ago, and it sounded killer, but the same statement applies to his spruce tops.

Now here's the kicker. I love both negras and blancas, but for my flamenco taste I would prioritize my guitar buying. First I feel that the most important guitar for flamenco is a good blanca. Lets just say a spruce blanca. Then my next guitar on the list would be a negra, and I would round out my list with a cedar blanca. If you go this way and buy a negra after your first blanca and decide that you like the "negra sound" better, than buy a cedar negra as your 3rd guitar. Or best of all, just buy a cedar and spruce blanca, and a cedar and spruce negra...

So the short answer from me is, if this is going to be your first concert flamenco, you may be best off going with a spruce blanca. Again, this is just my thoughts based on my feelings... If I could only own 1 guitar, I would probably pick a spruce blanca. In the end I'm still mostly a spruce fan, and mostly a blanca fan... And please do keep us updated on the progress of your guitar!

P.S, and one more thing, I understand about you wanting to go with the 650 scale, but don't be afraid of the 655. I had the same thoughts when I ordered my negra. I thought that I would only be comfortable on 650, but I decided to try the 660, and in the end the stretch didn't affect me much at all. Just keep it in mind. Another 5 MM is not to big of a deal in the end. Again, just a thought, as I said, I know where your coming from...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 6 2012 0:18:51
 
Kalo

 

Posts: 400
Joined: Jan. 25 2011
 

RE: Spruce Top Or Cedar Top (in reply to Kalo

quote:

Hey Kalo, I would say talk with Andy about it. I'm sure he will help you choose the best direction. He's a high quality builder, and I want to get one of his guitars myself...

Now that your head has been put to spinning by all of the information, lets see if I can be of any help. It seems that if your use to/ liked the sound of your spruce Navarro, I would stick with that. If you had played a few good cedar flamencos and fell in love with the sound, than my advice may would be different. As it is though you may be best off with spruce. After all, you already know that you like the tone of spruce.

Cedar will take more damage from the nails than spruce, but that's just a part of life. A spruce top will also take dings easier than anyone would wish. I always say that on a new guitar the first scratch is about the worse feeling you can have. Once that first scratch is on though, you can finely loosen up and play. After all you already have one scratch, what's another.

I know Andy had a video of a cedar guitar he built a month or 2 ago, and it sounded killer, but the same statement applies to his spruce tops.

Now here's the kicker. I love both negras and blancas, but for my flamenco taste I would prioritize my guitar buying. First I feel that the most important guitar for flamenco is a good blanca. Lets just say a spruce blanca. Then my next guitar on the list would be a negra, and I would round out my list with a cedar blanca. If you go this way and buy a negra after your first blanca and decide that you like the "negra sound" better, than buy a cedar negra as your 3rd guitar. Or best of all, just buy a cedar and spruce blanca, and a cedar and spruce negra...

So the short answer from me is, if this is going to be your first concert flamenco, you may be best off going with a spruce blanca. Again, this is just my thoughts based on my feelings... If I could only own 1 guitar, I would probably pick a spruce blanca. In the end I'm still mostly a spruce fan, and mostly a blanca fan... And please do keep us updated on the progress of your guitar!

P.S, and one more thing, I understand about you wanting to go with the 650 scale, but don't be afraid of the 655. I had the same thoughts when I ordered my negra. I thought that I would only be comfortable on 650, but I decided to try the 660, and in the end the stretch didn't affect me much at all. Just keep it in mind. Another 5 MM is not to big of a deal in the end. Again, just a thought, as I said, I know where your coming from...


Hi Shawn!

Thanks so much for this cool response!!! Your post has helped me out quite a bit.

As for right now I can afford one guitar So, maybe one day if I become really good, and come a cross the cash, I can get a cedar, with negra back and sides or even blanca with cedar top.

My hands are skinny, slender and small...Well, I am a girl, so I am really scared to get a 660 scale! I am sure if I tried one, maybe I wouldn't really know the difference and would be able to play...

I will get in touch Andy and tighten up my specs on more time and hopefully, I will have my new guitar built and done by July...

Andy's guitars has lots of positive reviews which only makes me have more confidence in him

Thanks again,

Kalo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 6 2012 3:14:54
 
FullMetalGuitarist

Posts: 88
Joined: Aug. 22 2011
 

RE: Spruce Top Or Cedar Top (in reply to Kalo

I'm a blanca guy.
To my taste Spruce top sounds great when you play with a mic and/or accompanied by another guitar/cajon/palmas etc. . .
However , when playing solo I'm finding the cedar top blanca's sound more suitable, due to the slight "distorted" sound that it has.

I like Andy as a luthier especially because of his cedar top blancas , he manages to tame this cedar wood so it'll sound like an old school blanca , and hopefully after I'll finish my B.sc degree and get some money, I'll buy one from him.

Again , all that is written here is my personal taste of sound , and is , of course, subjective

Two cedar top blancas by Andy:

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 6 2012 6:52:38
 
Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Spruce Top Or Cedar Top (in reply to Kalo

Smaller guitars feel awkward for us 6' + long armed people but in your case you should look at the positives. If you take a piece of cardboard and cut it into two squares one bigger then the other you will notice the smaller piece is stiffer even though it is the exact same material, this is the same with soundboards. Smaller guitars are more energy efficient and have a lively charm about them because this increased stiffness allows for a lightly braced lighter weight soundboard. Smaller meaning in the Santos/Torres range.
My suggestion, discuss with Andy the possibility of a 645 scale guitar with a slightly smaller body, appropriate neck dimensions and string spacings for your hand size. I would also suggest going with a soundport on a smaller bodied guitar, this is where their use really shines.
The most important thing is for you to get a guitar that you are so incredibly comfortable playing you just can't put it down. I'm sure Andy will be more then happy to make you exactly what you need, that is the beauty of working with a luthier.

Cedar or Spruce, they both work and both have their advantages.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 6 2012 16:16:00
 
Shawn Brock

 

Posts: 271
Joined: Sep. 19 2011
From: Louisville KY

RE: Spruce Top Or Cedar Top (in reply to Kalo

Hey Kalo,

Glad I said something worth while. LOL I just love talking about guitars!

As has been said in a round-about-way, you can't go wrong with either spruce or cedar from Andy. One thing to factor in is your hand strength. In theory it takes less energy to get a cedar top going because of the stiffness... I play freaking hard! So I don't notice any difference. If you have a somewhat strong attack in the right hand, don't worry about it at all, you'll be fine with either cedar or spruce...

It sounds like most of your concern is with the neck and the left hand. In that case you may also want to consider having Andy round the neck somewhat when he carves it. My blanca is 52 MM nut, 650 scale, and has a flat and somewhat thick neck. Nothing wrong with that, and it plays fine for me, but I notice a lot of difference in it and my negra which has a pretty rounded neck, 660 scale and 51 MM nut. I seem to notice the contrast between the flat neck and rounded neck more so than I do the 1 MM difference in nut width.

Also start thinking about if you want pegs, planetary pegs, or tuning machines. I have guitars with each, and by far the planetary pegs are my favorite! Again this is just a preference which is personal to the player, and Andy can give you his thoughts as a builder who's installed all options.

I know what you mean about having the cash for guitars. Its a big investment... That's why I gave you my list of preferences with buying a blanca first. Being that I have a good cedar blanca and a good spruce negra, I'm half way through my list. My next guitar will be a good spruce blanca. After that I will go after the cedar negra, or so I hope... Aw yes, some day...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 6 2012 16:48:22
 
Kalo

 

Posts: 400
Joined: Jan. 25 2011
 

RE: Spruce Top Or Cedar Top (in reply to Kalo

quote:

Smaller guitars feel awkward for us 6' + long armed people but in your case you should look at the positives. If you take a piece of cardboard and cut it into two squares one bigger then the other you will notice the smaller piece is stiffer even though it is the exact same material, this is the same with soundboards. Smaller guitars are more energy efficient and have a lively charm about them because this increased stiffness allows for a lightly braced lighter weight soundboard. Smaller meaning in the Santos/Torres range.
My suggestion, discuss with Andy the possibility of a 645 scale guitar with a slightly smaller body, appropriate neck dimensions and string spacings for your hand size. I would also suggest going with a soundport on a smaller bodied guitar, this is where their use really shines.
The most important thing is for you to get a guitar that you are so incredibly comfortable playing you just can't put it down. I'm sure Andy will be more then happy to make you exactly what you need, that is the beauty of working with a luthier. Cedar or Spruce, they both work and both have their advantages.


Hi Sean,

AWESOME, advise...I was thinking of a smaller body, but, didn't know if the slightly smaller body with a soundport....AWESOME...I will bring that up

Ugh, 645mm scale length...hmm, well I just hope that wouldn't diminish the sound in anyway....

I still debating between Cedar and Spruce..

The great thing is Andy won't start my guitar for a couple of months, so, I have time to tweak the specs...This is awesome thanks for the advise....

quote:

Glad I said something worth while. LOL I just love talking about guitars!

As has been said in a round-about-way, you can't go wrong with either spruce or cedar from Andy. One thing to factor in is your hand strength. In theory it takes less energy to get a cedar top going because of the stiffness... I play freaking hard! So I don't notice any difference. If you have a somewhat strong attack in the right hand, don't worry about it at all, you'll be fine with either cedar or spruce...

It sounds like most of your concern is with the neck and the left hand. In that case you may also want to consider having Andy round the neck somewhat when he carves it. My blanca is 52 MM nut, 650 scale, and has a flat and somewhat thick neck. Nothing wrong with that, and it plays fine for me, but I notice a lot of difference in it and my negra which has a pretty rounded neck, 660 scale and 51 MM nut. I seem to notice the contrast between the flat neck and rounded neck more so than I do the 1 MM difference in nut width.

Also start thinking about if you want pegs, planetary pegs, or tuning machines. I have guitars with each, and by far the planetary pegs are my favorite! Again this is just a preference which is personal to the player, and Andy can give you his thoughts as a builder who's installed all options.

I know what you mean about having the cash for guitars. Its a big investment... That's why I gave you my list of preferences with buying a blanca first. Being that I have a good cedar blanca and a good spruce negra, I'm half way through my list. My next guitar will be a good spruce blanca. After that I will go after the cedar negra, or so I hope... Aw yes, some day...


Thank Shaw...I love talking about guitars as well...I was talking to Andy about maybe making the neck a little flatter in the back.....So, we'll see....

Okay, I am embrassed to post...But you guys can see if you've not already viewed one of my Sevillanas on you tube...

You can see how small I am...By the way the hair has growned out, LOL!!!!

Here is the link...She how small my hands are..LOL

Thanks again...

Kalo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 6 2012 21:41:38
 
Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Spruce Top Or Cedar Top (in reply to Kalo

645 will be plenty long enough to drive a smaller bodied guitar and the soundport will lower the air resonance. Torres did a similar trick with a tornavoz but with a soundport you will get the stereo like effect and hear the guitar better. You need a slightly smaller but properly shaped proportioned neck, a thin flat neck may feel easy to fit your hand around but it gives you no leverage which leads to quicker fatigue and when the practice hours go up left hand injuries.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 6 2012 23:21:22
 
Kalo

 

Posts: 400
Joined: Jan. 25 2011
 

RE: Spruce Top Or Cedar Top (in reply to Kalo

quote:

645 will be plenty long enough to drive a smaller bodied guitar and the soundport will lower the air resonance. Torres did a similar trick with a tornavoz but with a soundport you will get the stereo like effect and hear the guitar better. You need a slightly smaller but properly shaped proportioned neck, a thin flat neck may feel easy to fit your hand around but it gives you no leverage which leads to quicker fatigue and when the practice hours go up left hand injuries.


Sean,

If I am not mistaken, I believe Andy stated that he makes his neck the typical C-shape. So, what should I ask him just to shave it down a bit??

I run down the smaller body by him as well. I am not sure if he's ever made one with a soundport...

GREAT IDEAS!!!

Kalo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 7 2012 3:08:31
 
Samarto

Posts: 160
Joined: Mar. 21 2008
 

RE: Spruce Top Or Cedar Top (in reply to Kalo

Kalo, This is a question that has many variables. Spruce comes in many varieties and they all differ in tonal qualities. Cedar also comes in different varieties that differ. How about a cypress top? The best soundboard for a flamenco I have ever played on or heard is Port Orford Cypress. Some consider it a cedar, but it isn't. It has many of the characteristics of spruce and some of cedar. Also bracing is an important factor as is back and sides wood. All these determine the final outcome. As a generalization cedar sounds as good a few days after the guitar is finished as it does 2 years later, whereas spruce will change, perhaps mellow and become more responsive. Best thing is to discuss with Andy what he thinks will give you the tone and response you have in mind.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 7 2012 12:29:13
 
Samarto

Posts: 160
Joined: Mar. 21 2008
 

RE: Spruce Top Or Cedar Top (in reply to Kalo

While your hands maybe small, your fingers look long and you have a good reach, so even a 650 might work good for you. I have heard 640's that sound great so I am sure Andy can make a fine great sounding flamenco whether 640, 645, or 650. I was watching your left hand again and your fingers are nicely on the tips when using the index and also the little finger on a stretch. I realize you are using a cejilla on the 2nd fret, but still sometimes people with little hands, especially short fingers have trouble making these same stretches and both fingers solidly on the tips.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 7 2012 12:38:50
 
Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Spruce Top Or Cedar Top (in reply to Kalo

Nothing to extreme that will kill resale value, more along the lines of an old Santos which is generally a little smaller then most guitars made today. Meaning a little narrower with an in proportion C shape

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 7 2012 19:00:03
 
Kalo

 

Posts: 400
Joined: Jan. 25 2011
 

RE: Spruce Top Or Cedar Top (in reply to Kalo

Hi Samarto,

Thanks for your response...I too have heard that Cedar doesn't change at all in sound even after 2 years...I am still thinking that I can handle 650 mm as my Student Navarro was a 650 mm...

I will ask Andy about Cypress top as well...That sounds cool...Kind of like the best of both worlds...

And, Sean, I agree with you a C-shape neck and just a LITTLE thinner in the back...

Thanks guys...I have a sleuth of info to discuss with Andy...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 7 2012 20:41:19
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