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John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

Tangos de Granada 

Hey everyone,

had a discussion with a dance teacher. She didn't like my C-B-A#-A for the llamada before her class's tangos de Granada dance part. She says it slows them down somehow, but has nothing to do with the speed. Then she played me a recording of a guitarist playing A#-A#-A#-A# instead. Found this to be a bit nit-picky.

I've learned it's not necessary to react at all during a llamada from a dancer as long as you know she's doing it. If I could always react I wouldn't need a llamada, right? But could it annoy a dancer if you do react? I like to play along when I can so everyone knows what's going on. But she claims there are different llamadas for different things in tangos de Granada and I was doing it wrong. This is for the presentation of a dance school, so although the choreography is pretty simple, the correct theory should be pretty important. Also I'm there regularly having to hear this from her time and again, so it would be great to get it cleared up somehow...

Now I'm waiting for someone to suprise me and explain to me that she's right, actually it would make my life a lot easier if it were the case LOL. I assumed I knew better but hey, I don't know everything...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2012 14:00:48
 
El_Tortuga

Posts: 258
Joined: Aug. 11 2011
From: Canada

RE: Tangos de Granada (in reply to John O.

I don't know what a Tangos de Granada is exactly, but I'm sure many of the same rules apply in following the dance.

As to a llamada, the dancers traditionally signal it with an upswing of their arms before beat 1, then the arms finish with a "close" and they accent beat 1 usually with the whole foot (what's the name of that step? A golpe? I forget).

As to the dancer being put off by your llamadas, it makes me wonder. If you're playing your llamadas at a good tempo and locking in with the feet, I don't see why it would be a problem for her to stay in rhythm?

Also, you need to be very aware of something, especially with the student dancers: they will not necessarily start their llamadas in the right place! Then you need to follow them for sure, because you might have to shave off a beat or 2! So keep that in mind. Their llamadas' steps are arranged, so if they start them early, you have to compensate by staying with them.

Long story short: guitarists are at the BOTTOM of the hierarchy!!

One thing I always do: follow the feet. I mean, watch them at all times. Yeah, I know, you'd like to be checking out the rest of her right? LOL but really the thing to do is watch the feet...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2012 16:30:11
 
rombsix

Posts: 7854
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Tangos de Granada (in reply to El_Tortuga

quote:

One thing I always do: follow the feet. I mean, watch them at all times. Yeah, I know, you'd like to be checking out the rest of her right? LOL but really the thing to do is watch the feet...


Works best if the guitarist has a thing for feet too.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2012 20:06:14
 
orsonw

Posts: 1960
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Tangos de Granada (in reply to rombsix

quote:

One thing I always do: follow the feet. I mean, watch them at all times. Yeah, I know, you'd like to be checking out the rest of her right? LOL but really the thing to do is watch the feet..


I prefer to take cues from the whole body, arms as well as feet; not all marking is done with feet. Things will be missed (aire as well as rhythmical marking) if only the feet are followed.

I am also interested to hear if there is some unbreakable rule about tangos de granada llamadas (but I imagine there probably isn't.)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2012 20:42:23
 
John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: Tangos de Granada (in reply to orsonw

Yeah, I didn't think there was. I've been accompanying dance classes for 8 years now at 4 different schools and have been on stage with enough professional dancers, this is the first time I've ever heard this, so I should actually know better.

It's like what El Tortuga says, guitarists at the bottom of the hierarchy. If a dance instructor wants it a certain way you have to comply even if it's questionable, never question the boss, so to speak It starts to get difficult when the instructor herself can't explain what she wants and possibly doesn't even really know...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2012 22:31:46
 
El_Tortuga

Posts: 258
Joined: Aug. 11 2011
From: Canada

RE: Tangos de Granada (in reply to John O.

quote:

ORIGINAL: John O.

Yeah, I didn't think there was. I've been accompanying dance classes for 8 years now at 4 different schools and have been on stage with enough professional dancers, this is the first time I've ever heard this, so I should actually know better.

It's like what El Tortuga says, guitarists at the bottom of the hierarchy. If a dance instructor wants it a certain way you have to comply even if it's questionable, never question the boss, so to speak It starts to get difficult when the instructor herself can't explain what she wants and possibly doesn't even really know...


You took the words right outta my mouth LOL

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2012 22:38:06
 
El_Tortuga

Posts: 258
Joined: Aug. 11 2011
From: Canada

RE: Tangos de Granada (in reply to orsonw

quote:

ORIGINAL: orsonw

quote:

One thing I always do: follow the feet. I mean, watch them at all times. Yeah, I know, you'd like to be checking out the rest of her right? LOL but really the thing to do is watch the feet..


I prefer to take cues from the whole body, arms as well as feet; not all marking is done with feet. Things will be missed (aire as well as rhythmical marking) if only the feet are followed.

I am also interested to hear if there is some unbreakable rule about tangos de granada llamadas (but I imagine there probably isn't.)


Ahh, very true! Sorry I was referring more to when there is footwork happening, as opposed to marcaje, I should've been clearer in my wording.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2012 22:39:54
 
akatune

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2012 2:05:25
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14995
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From: Washington DC

RE: Tangos de Granada (in reply to John O.

sounds like more of a basic compas issue. Llamadas are 2 compas long in terms of phrase. The end of a llamada is the closing or remate. You describe just a remate where based on what you were shown (Bb only going to A), they didn't want one. Sometimes substituting your own ideas work fine but you have also be aware when to NOT do anything ie just keep the compas. The C-B-Bb-A resolution is done as an answer to cante or something rhtyhmically similar and the dancer doesn't want that if they are dancing onward or whatever.

Sorry can't be more help without seeing the dance....but in my experience it is best to just do as your told and figure it all out later. When you get to the point where they hardly ever need to tell you what to do...you have it all figured out.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2012 4:09:19
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2012 4:39:49
 
John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: Tangos de Granada (in reply to John O.

Ricardo, you are always big help!

I'm of the same opinion with figuring it out, that's why I'm here. I even checked out videos on Youtube and the old videos from the school, found no correlation. I should add at the moment we're at farruca speed, the dynamics aren't really even there yet. But I'm just gonna do what she says anyways ... don't have a choice

It's just after the entrada, the llamada taking the big steps and pulling the arms up, that very typical llamada, just before some footwork. She confused me talking about a special llamada, she just doesn't want any.

Romerito I read that too, found it very comforting

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2012 8:07:29
 
KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: Tangos de Granada (in reply to John O.

quote:

She didn't like my C-B-A#-A for the llamada before her class's tangos de Granada dance part. She says it slows them down somehow, but has nothing to do with the speed. Then she played me a recording of a guitarist playing A#-A#-A#-A# instead. Found this to be a bit nit-picky.


Sounds a bit nit picky to me as well. Sometimes dancers just have a certain chord in their head that they want to hear. I find it annoying when it's a chord that i don't like musically. The answer is to just keep playing the one you like until they get used to it.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2012 8:49:06
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2012 9:46:41
 
John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: Tangos de Granada (in reply to KMMI77

KMMI77 that is the easy way to go about it, but I've heard of guitarists getting kicked out of schools for that kind of stuff. Some teachers like to learn or get feedback from guitarists, some just want to be right and it's best to put the ego aside and let them be right if you want to keep the partnership. Sometimes you get a little suprise and learn something new.

The problem with this kind of stuff is if they can't explain what they mean then they send the guitarist on a hunt for information that may or may not be there, it's a huge time investment for possibly meaningless stuff.

I also had a discussion about bamberas once, this same teacher told me I was playing soleá por bulerias and not bamberas, the bamberas rhythm is different. I know there is bamberas por fandangos as well but have never seen it danced, it's not what she meant, anyways. I asked around, did research on the net and was told by every guitarist it's the same rhythm. So when it was brought up again I just shrugged like "Sorry I can't do it well enough, I guess I just suck" and continued playing. Sometimes it's the only thing to do.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2012 9:48:56
 
John O.

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From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: Tangos de Granada (in reply to John O.

I'm not sure Romerito, it's not a displante, but you could still be right.

They walk in slowly clapping, then they have one movement that only goes 8 beats, a typical single llamada, then they start dancing. I'm not sure if she's just hellbent on the recording, I checked out videos of the same choreo and sometimes it's C-B-Bb-A, sometimes Bb-Bb-Bb-A, couldn't find anything that makes sense.

On Monday I'm gonna try to only play C-B-Bb-A after falsetas and breaks and see if she's happy.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2012 9:56:15
 
rombsix

Posts: 7854
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Tangos de Granada (in reply to John O.

Why do guitarists have to always learn to please the dancers or singers, while things do not work the other way round? I find the guitarist is the person who has to learn MUSIC and its theory as well as flamenco, plus the guitarist has to do physical efforts too. While the dancer does NOT have to learn music, but only flamenco and it's principles, and mostly physical efforts. The singer also has to know music as well as flamenco.

What I'm trying to say is that the guitarist needs to know how to produce melodies and not just know the compas and structures. The singer also needs to do that, but to figure stuff out on guitar is harder than to sing it. If we take two people with the same ear (in terms of musical abilities), I am sure that to sing something (a simple melody) would be easier by voice than to produce it on guitar. The dancer is concerned with expressing emotions with their bodily gestures, but no actual melodies need to be produced.

So the way I see it, guitarists know the MOST about flamenco and music because they have to know their own crap as well as some of the crap that dancers and singers do, while this does not apply the other way round. Most of the time, if you just play a different set of chords while keeping the same rhythm, the dancer will go, "Ahhh yes, that's what I was looking for" and you would be laughing to yourself that their request to change the original playing was altogether rubbish.

No offense to any dancers or singers, and I'm sorry for hi-jacking the thread. But I just felt like I had to say this after having interacted with some dancers. The fact that guitarists are at the "bottom of the food chain" as stated above is in my opinion utter bull-crap.

Cheers!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2012 10:21:01
 
John O.

Posts: 1723
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From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: Tangos de Granada (in reply to rombsix

I'm sure if you're Paco de Lucia or Gerardo Núñez you have more say than others, but the truth is the guitarist supports the dancers and singers first, has to keep the nerves and catch everything and hold everything together. If a mistake happens it's up to the guitarist alongside the palmeros to react correctly.

The saying among the guitarists in my area is "It's always the guitarist's fault". The dancers and singers I know do know this very well and have a lot of respect for the guitarists and often say they're glad they don't have the same responsibility.

In the end, it all depends on which dancers/singers you want to work with vs. how important it is for you to be right, to be "the leader". If I earn enough playing with a certain group or at a certain school, they can be right if they want and it's their fault if they want to be wrong (assuming they are wrong).

Most of the groups I'm in work together and try to figure stuff out as a team. Just yesterday another dancer I work with said "Oh hey remember that problem we had? I asked an instructor in Jerez and she said...." I love that kind of camaraderie.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2012 10:34:09
 
rombsix

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From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Tangos de Granada (in reply to John O.

Thanks for the great reply, John.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2012 10:42:33
 
El_Tortuga

Posts: 258
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From: Canada

RE: Tangos de Granada (in reply to rombsix

quote:

ORIGINAL: rombsix

So the way I see it, guitarists know the MOST about flamenco and music because they have to know their own crap as well as some of the crap that dancers and singers do, while this does not apply the other way round. Most of the time, if you just play a different set of chords while keeping the same rhythm, the dancer will go, "Ahhh yes, that's what I was looking for" and you would be laughing to yourself that their request to change the original playing was altogether rubbish.

No offense to any dancers or singers, and I'm sorry for hi-jacking the thread. But I just felt like I had to say this after having interacted with some dancers. The fact that guitarists are at the "bottom of the food chain" as stated above is in my opinion utter bull-crap.

Cheers!


Haha, don't take it out on the poor dancers

Historically, flamenco started with voice and rudimentary percussion, then added dance, then added guitar, then other percussion and instruments, cajón etc.

When the singer sings, the guitarist and the dancer support.

When the singer is done and takes a break, the dancer comes first and everyone supports.

When the dancer and singer take a break, we can go for a beer.

But seriously, the cante is the top of the hierarchy, then the dance, then the accompaniment. Really great accompanists are as important to flamenco - maybe MORE important - than really great soloists.

But we can't expect a dancer to know how to sing and play guitar, he/she is busy learning to dance. The same as we can't expect a guitarist to know how to sing and dance, he/she is busy learning the music (and the rules of accompaniment, if desired).

The only person I know who can do it ALL, is Rafael de Carmen. We hosted him in Halifax in 2010, what a time that was. He is first and foremost a dancer, but he can also play guitar, cajón and even sings a bit! So he was bouncing back and forth between all of them while we learned his Taranto. What a guy.

As an accompanist, I am constantly on the watch for when the dancer and singer make mistakes - and they always do LOL - the guitarists are the 'glue' that hold the performance together.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2012 12:16:17
 
rombsix

Posts: 7854
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RE: Tangos de Granada (in reply to El_Tortuga

Yeah I agree with you Bob, but times have changed. If guitarists were to all go on strike, I'd like to know how many butts will remain in the seats at flamenco shows. The idea is that each one of those three facets of flamenco now is as important as the other (just my opinion of course), and if there is still going to be a hierarchy concept going on, then flamenco is not evolving as a music and as a thing that humans do in general.

It used to be considered before that doctors were the most important and all other members were crap in medical setups. Now, the concept of a TEAM is always emphasized because it was shown that things function best that way. The exact same concept must be applied to flamenco, or else there is always going to be the feeling of someone being superior to the other, and that is of no use to anyone.

Cheers!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2012 12:29:59
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Tangos de Granada (in reply to El_Tortuga

quote:

Historically, flamenco started with voice and rudimentary percussion, then added dance, then added guitar, then other percussion and instruments, cajón etc.
.

Heard it so many times yet, take a look at kudo's avatar. El Planeta is the first flamenco singer we know of historically and he played guitar to accompany himself. For sure there were singers singing w no guitar all along but the idea that guitar was not added to cante until 1850 or whatever makes no sense to me looking at a drawing like that of a guy born in 1700s.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2012 12:56:53
 
El_Tortuga

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From: Canada

RE: Tangos de Granada (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

Historically, flamenco started with voice and rudimentary percussion, then added dance, then added guitar, then other percussion and instruments, cajón etc.
.

Heard it so many times yet, take a look at kudo's avatar. El Planeta is the first flamenco singer we know of historically and he played guitar to accompany himself. For sure there were singers singing w no guitar all along but the idea that guitar was not added to cante until 1850 or whatever makes no sense to me looking at a drawing like that of a guy born in 1700s.


Thanks, I'll read up on this.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2012 13:32:26
 
mezzo

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RE: Tangos de Granada (in reply to El_Tortuga

I think the vast majority of pro cantaor (at least the jitanos) play the guitar. Not in a virtuose way, but they have enough skills to jam along in juergas or social interactions.

Camaron played guitar. Arcangel plays as well. Farru plays guitar and also sing.
The list could be endless IMO.

Guitar is not something reserved only to guitaristas in the flamenco world.
After the question is : Is there a level of skills for someone to reach in order to be called a tocaor?
The use of the guitar as a percussive tools in flamenco implies that it could be used (and well used) in a very "basic" way. ie without all the virtuosity concept. On the contrary of classical guitar side eg.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2012 14:54:08
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2012 16:15:04
 
Estevan

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RE: Tangos de Granada (in reply to rombsix

quote:


Works best if the guitarist has a thing for feet too.

Spoken like a budding psychiatrist.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2012 17:09:41
 
elroby

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2012 17:25:41
 
rombsix

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RE: Tangos de Granada (in reply to Estevan

quote:

Spoken like a budding psychiatrist.




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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2012 17:29:29
 
Ricardo

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RE: Tangos de Granada (in reply to Guest

quote:

ORIGINAL: romerito

quote:

El Planeta is the first flamenco singer we know of historically and he played guitar to accompany himself. For sure there were singers singing w no guitar all along but the idea that guitar was not added to cante until 1850 or whatever makes no sense to me looking at a drawing like that of a guy born in 1700s.


Nope. We have some of his letras but scholars are now calling him proto or pre flamenco (see Hurtado Las Llaves del Flamenco - a great start at reevaluating flamenco history but I think it leaves alot out).

I do agree with you that the guitar has always been around to accompany the cante. It has been around with the first treatise on how to accompany popular songs published in 1586 or 1596 (date disputed). I think there are so many myths surrounding flamenco and now is an exciting time because true historians, anthropologists, sociologists and musicologists are beginning to take flamenco seriously and are treating it to rigorous methodologies and theories. Unfortunately, scholarly work is not always accessible and so alot of the misinformation continues. Not only that, but even when it is produced for public consumption, it is hard to get it in America because so much of it is published in Spain (anyone try ordering from Flamenco World??? .)

Protoflamenco?
Well whatever no one will ever know but if you think Fillo was then the first flamenco singer and his teacher was Planeta then what was he being taught? anyway I read e sang siguiriyas romance and Ca~a ... In the drawing of him he plays G7 and drinks some fino or something with a gun on the table. I wouldn't want to argue with him that he was flamenco or not

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2012 21:10:40
 
kudo

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RE: Tangos de Granada (in reply to El_Tortuga

quote:

The only person I know who can do it ALL, is Rafael de Carmen

and Paco Fernandez, he even sings in his CD !! (there is a thread on him somewhere here with videos)

quote:

If guitarists were to all go on strike, I'd like to know how many butts will remain in the seats at flamenco shows

I have to say that in my last performance with a bunch of dancers, (with 400 people in the audience)and during my solos, no full attention was given from the audience. HOWEVER, after us ,3 student dancers did a solo Martinite , no music, no nothing. just 3 of them doing palmas and footwork, and guess what? the whole hall was in absolute silence and paying 100% attention. so the show could go on without guitarists and just a dancer, as people tend to look at musicians doing their think as a "background music" so they think its ok to talk and eat and not look because they think they dont need to look

the TEAM idea is what I BELIEVE in too! they should also work together in figuring out whats wrong and be clear.but when they throw it all on the guitarist and leave you to figure out what what they want and/or whats wrong, it drives me nuts!!! especially when you eventually figure out that you have been doing the right thing the whole time throughout the long choreography except that there is 1 chord in a few compas sections that you are not changing to because theres no live singer with you to change to there....so at the end its not my fault that there's no live singer to guide me.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2012 22:17:37
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2012 22:56:25
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