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rombsix

Posts: 7854
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

Sevillanas help 

Hello mates,

A dancer I'm working with has a choreography prepared to go along with this modern sounding sevillana:



I played a traditional ("happy sounding") sevillana for him, and he said it wouldn't work because the choreography is so smooth and feminine, and the traditional sevillanas are too rough for such dancing.

Another issue is that you will notice how there are four coplas in the above sevillanas track, and there are TRANSITIONS in between. The traditional sevillana has a sharp ending on beat one, then a pause, before the next copla is started. In Estrella Morente's above, there is not much of a pause because a falseta kicks in and the choreography the dancer has prepared has stuff going on during the transitions between coplas.

The problem is that we don't have a singer, so even if I figure out how to play "A Pastora" above, it sounds like rubbish if I only play the accompanying chords without a melody (normally the cante) over them. If we can find a violinist maybe, or at least another guitarist, this might work.

The help I need is this - can you give me suggestions about sevillanas that sound somewhat similar to this one (aire, modern harmonies, transitions in between coplas) but where it is only guitar, or at least there is no cante involved? I am hoping to try to come up with something I can play to replace the above sevillana and plug into the choreography instead so that I will actually be able to participate on this number...

Cheers!

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 15 2012 21:16:31
 
kudo

Posts: 2064
Joined: Sep. 3 2009
 

RE: Sevillanas help (in reply to rombsix

quote:

it sounds like rubbish if I only play the accompanying chords without a melody (normally the cante) over them.

I hear ya! thats what I hate about accompanying a dance class without a singer. (they dont seem to like falsetas as a replacement, they prefer boring repetition of chords)
you might want to try Moraito's sevillanas:


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 15 2012 21:28:49
 
beno

Posts: 881
Joined: Nov. 3 2006
From: Hungary

RE: Sevillanas help (in reply to rombsix

quote:

so even if I figure out how to play "A Pastora" above, it sounds like rubbish if I only play the accompanying chords without a melody


Hey Ramzi here's what I think:

If You get that well, and play it very close to the original it wouldn't sound rubbish -nor that easy- at all. That's some very tasteful stuff, and sound great on it's own. If You find that rubbish strive to acquire it's groove!

...and there also are parts with 2 guitars sounding simultaenously..what's You gonna do with that?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 15 2012 21:32:03
 
beno

Posts: 881
Joined: Nov. 3 2006
From: Hungary

RE: Sevillanas help (in reply to rombsix

but here's an alternative I'd go:



It's not far from a traditional one yet has different aire to it. And it's not that hard to play!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 15 2012 21:35:37
 
rombsix

Posts: 7854
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Sevillanas help (in reply to beno

quote:

Hey Ramzi here's what I think:

If You get that well, and play it very close to the original it wouldn't sound rubbish -nor that easy- at all. That's some very tasteful stuff, and sound great on it's own. If You find that rubbish strive to acquire it's groove!

...and there also are parts with 2 guitars sounding simultaenously..what's You gonna do with that?


I know that it's quite hard, Beno. I mean, it's not SUPER hard I think. More left hand work I would say than right hand work. It has a bit too many spaces I think (like room to breathe for the singer to do her thing with) and even if I were to digitally remove the vocals, I think it would still not sound superb without the cante. About the bits with two guitars, I only have a single pair of hands, so I won't be able to play both parts (and I'm not going to bother trying to arrange both parts into a single guitar).

And Beno - thanks for the help with Herrero.

Kudo - thanks for the help.

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Ramzi

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 15 2012 21:40:41
 
El_Tortuga

Posts: 258
Joined: Aug. 11 2011
From: Canada

RE: Sevillanas help (in reply to rombsix

Ram, you have to watch out for that Estrella Sevillanas, not only is it modern music-wise but compás-wise as well. I worked on it a number of years ago and almost had it ready with our female singer, but we didn't quite make it happen.

I've composed a couple more modern-sounding letras that might help. I'll try recording them.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 15 2012 21:57:05
 
rombsix

Posts: 7854
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Sevillanas help (in reply to El_Tortuga

quote:

not only is it modern music-wise but compás-wise as well.


How so? Can you point out bits in the video?

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 15 2012 22:36:59
 
kudo

Posts: 2064
Joined: Sep. 3 2009
 

RE: Sevillanas help (in reply to rombsix

quote:

How so? Can you point out bits in the video?

you can hear it in general! compare it with the traditional and you will see what he means

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 15 2012 22:39:04
 
El_Tortuga

Posts: 258
Joined: Aug. 11 2011
From: Canada

RE: Sevillanas help (in reply to rombsix

quote:

ORIGINAL: rombsix

quote:

not only is it modern music-wise but compás-wise as well.


How so? Can you point out bits in the video?


You were already on to it. The falsetas in the INTRO, the sometimes longer SALIDA and COPLA, they're playing around a lot. If the dancers are basing their choreography on this number, I think you're S.O.L.!! Maybe they'll be willing to compromise if you can get comfortable with a more modern Sevillanas that works for solo guitar?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 15 2012 22:50:59
 
rombsix

Posts: 7854
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Sevillanas help (in reply to El_Tortuga

Oh, I see. Thanks mates! The reason I didn't notice is because I just started playings sevillana seriously a few hours ago. I would say the compas is still the same, but the STRUCTURE is different. I consider compas to be 1,2,3,etc. versus structure to be length of salida, copla, etc.

Cheers!

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Ramzi

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 16 2012 9:25:11
 
Argaith

Posts: 481
Joined: May 6 2009
From: Iran (living in London)

RE: Sevillanas help (in reply to rombsix

Hi Ramzi,

Sorry mate, I don't mean to hijack your topic but since we're talking about Sevillanas, I thought I may ask the folks here a question that has been bugging me for sometime. Of course I can check this with my teacher, but a) I am too impatient, b) I am too busy at the moment and I don't know when will I seem him next.

Now the question: Is there any rules about the length of the coplas (i.e. 4 and a half compases, etc)? or it can be any multiples of 6 beats+3? And whether yes or not, do all 4 coplas have to be the same length?

Thanks for all your responses in advance.
A

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 16 2012 12:59:57
 
El_Tortuga

Posts: 258
Joined: Aug. 11 2011
From: Canada

RE: Sevillanas help (in reply to rombsix

quote:

ORIGINAL: rombsix

Oh, I see. Thanks mates! The reason I didn't notice is because I just started playings sevillana seriously a few hours ago. I would say the compas is still the same, but the STRUCTURE is different. I consider compas to be 1,2,3,etc. versus structure to be length of salida, copla, etc.

Cheers!


Oops, yes that's what I meant. The compás is indeed the same, but there are extra measures added beyond the traditional length.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 16 2012 13:31:59
 
El_Tortuga

Posts: 258
Joined: Aug. 11 2011
From: Canada

RE: Sevillanas help (in reply to Argaith

quote:

ORIGINAL: Argaith

Now the question: Is there any rules about the length of the coplas (i.e. 4 and a half compases, etc)? or it can be any multiples of 6 beats+3? And whether yes or not, do all 4 coplas have to be the same length?

Thanks for all your responses in advance.
A


I'll get back to you soon.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 16 2012 13:40:25
 
Argaith

Posts: 481
Joined: May 6 2009
From: Iran (living in London)

RE: Sevillanas help (in reply to El_Tortuga

Bob, you're a Gem

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 16 2012 13:50:22
 
El_Tortuga

Posts: 258
Joined: Aug. 11 2011
From: Canada

RE: Sevillanas help (in reply to Argaith

Ok, here's how I see the Sevillanas structure:

In a traditional Sevillanas framework, the structure is fixed, so the dancers have a repetitive framework to dance to. This repetition makes it somewhat easy to transcribe Sevillanas, because you can employ repeat symbols. I'm actually able to fit a letra of Sevillanas on one page.

As to compás, I personally think it's best to count in 6-beat compáses. And I must be right, because Doctor Compás agrees with me LOL

In its simplest analysis, each Sevillanas letra is a 24-compás structure:

INTRO/SALIDA: 6 compáses
COPLA: 6 compáses x 3 = 18

The part that confuses people is the fact that the first compás is cut to a half-compás starting on beat 4. The reason why this is done is (in my opinion) to make the wait time shorter between letras, otherwise there would be a longer gap which is 'awkward', so the solution was to shave the first compás by half and keep the momentum going.

Have a look at the PDF file in this link, I've indicated the Intro, Salida and Copla as well as the 6-beat count:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2419037/Music/Sevillanas-in-A-Major-1.pdf

Let me know what you think.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 16 2012 14:02:09
 
Mark2

Posts: 1894
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Sevillanas help (in reply to rombsix

I think your wrong about it sounding bad without the cante. learn what the guitarist on the recording is doing, and your golden. It's great music. As you mention, if you get another person to play the melody, even better.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 16 2012 15:39:30
 
rombsix

Posts: 7854
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Sevillanas help (in reply to Mark2

quote:

I think your wrong about it sounding bad without the cante.


Part of that was me trying to say that it's too hard, and I'm too lazy to figure it out by ear PLUS learn it.


Thanks for the explanation, Tortuga!

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 16 2012 16:18:41
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