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mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

the fifth degree in flamenco modes 

I came across this table (it's from a C. Worms book I believe).
Can someone explain me what is the role of the fifth degree in the whole cadence?

I mean I can relate all the others degree especially with the cante accomp. But for example in tangos (por medio) or a solea (por arriba) I never figure out these Em7(b5) or Bm7(b5) chords

Also if someone could help with the fingering' diagram of these Em7b5 and Bm7B5 chord? I made a search and look in the "all flamenco chords" pdf but found nada...maybe coz its called differently.
I lack of theoritical knowledge so just the diagram would be more than enough for me



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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2011 12:31:28
 
marrow3

Posts: 166
Joined: Mar. 1 2009
 

RE: the fifth degree in flamenco modes (in reply to mezzo

Hi,
There are people with much better knowledge than me here, so take with a pinch of salt

Chords are made by adding thirds to a root note. If you take a standard scale, and add two thirds to each of the notes in the scale all but one will be normal minor or major chords. If it is a major scale eg C to C in C major, the 7th note will form a m7b5 chord when two thirds are added. If it is a minor scale eg A to A in C major, it is the 2 nd note which is the m7b5 (Bm7b5). And finally if it is a phrygian scale E to E in C major then the 5 note is the m7b5.

In E phrygian use Bm7b5. Being the 5th it is a good counterpoint to the E. Considering tension and resolution. The F has strong tension against the E and the Bm7b5 has a moderate tension.

So you can have a run of chords like: E-Am, D7-G7 Cmaj7-F Bm7b5-E7. The Bm7b5 naturally fits within that sequence.

common shapes for the m7b5 chord (move them around on the neck as needed)

root on 6th string:
x
1
2
2
x
2
without capo this is F#m7b5

root on 5 th string:
x
3
2
3
2
x
without capo this is Bm7b5

root on 4 th string:
3
3
3
2
x
x
without capo this is Em7b5

link to Ricardo discussing building chords:
http://www.foroflamenco.com/printable.asp?m=156825&mpage=1

regards,
Richard
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2011 13:08:39
 
mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: the fifth degree in flamenco modes (in reply to marrow3

Thanks alot Richard.
As for the link, when I start to read discussion like this I always give up coz there are too many concepts that I'm not familiar with.

Btw I was not sure about the bm7b5 but I had it right (x2323x).
For the Em7b5 (xx2333), I never strum that chord.

And the point is why these chords don't seems to appear in the chords progression while you accomp a solea or a tango? Are they replaced by others?


quote:

So you can have a run of chords like: E-Am, D7-G7 Cmaj7-F Bm7b5-E7. The Bm7b5 naturally fits within that sequence.

Yeah I agree fit natural.

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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2011 13:42:10
 
marrow3

Posts: 166
Joined: Mar. 1 2009
 

RE: the fifth degree in flamenco modes (in reply to mezzo

Hi Mezzo, thanks,

I don't know why it is used more. Speculating...

The chord changes in a typical copla E-Am F-E, or G7-C F-E are quite strong/distinctive. As are the equivalents por medio. The m7b5 chord has notes which are each separated by 3 semitones - so the chord shape can be moved up 3 frets to get the same chord (but different inversion). The harmony when using this chord isn't as obvious or strong as with the other chords since the root note is ambiguous.

However, maybe there are circumstances where it is used more
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2011 15:23:29
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: the fifth degree in flamenco modes (in reply to mezzo

Bm7b5 does not work too well in medio, which is phrygian. You dont HAVE to play that chord, only because it appears in a scale. It depends on the musical situation. It works in Am (A minor) for example. Like in II-V-I: Bm7b5-E7-Am.
You can shift one finger and play Bbmaj7, that works as a replacement of D minor in A phrygian.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2011 15:54:02
 
mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: the fifth degree in flamenco modes (in reply to marrow3

quote:

The harmony when using this chord isn't as obvious or strong as with the other chords since the root note is ambiguous.

that's make sense.

Deniz you confuze me with your post.
bm7b5 is not part of the A phrygian mode (according to the table above), so why do you want to play it in that context?

And for the Aminor progression you pointed out, is in the E phrygian mode V-IV with the E7 as passing chord.

Anyway my question is more about the cante pattern here. As solo guitar you have more freedom to play what you want (more or less ).

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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2011 16:59:40
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: the fifth degree in flamenco modes (in reply to mezzo

quote:

ORIGINAL: mezzo
bm7b5 is not part of the A phrygian mode (according to the table above), so why do you want to play it in that context?


because you said: "But for example in tangos (por medio) or a solea (por arriba) I never figure out these Em7(b5) or Bm7(b5) chords "

quote:


Anyway my question is more about the cante pattern here. As solo guitar you have more freedom to play what you want (more or less ).


Of course, thats what i meant with musical situation. If the singer calls for Bm7b5 then you play it (unusual in por medio).

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2011 17:13:50
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14993
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: the fifth degree in flamenco modes (in reply to mezzo

quote:

And the point is why these chords don't seems to appear in the chords progression while you accomp a solea or a tango? Are they replaced by others?


It is a weak chord to begin with because it does not contain a perfect 5th. In the context of flamenco, especially cante accomp, it already contains many notes of the tonic chord (only one is different when coupled with the actual tonic as bass note) so you get the feeling it is not "going anywhere" harmonically.

So in a sense the reason you don't notice it so much is because it is used SO OFTEN. Step out of por medio or por arriba for a minute. Think about taranta. The main chord has the M7b5 already in it, above the F# root. (C#m7b5 is C# E G B...the open strings bring it out clearly against the F# tonic).

Transpose that to E and you will find some nice places where when you rest on tonic, you can have that open suspended sound by hearing the A note instead of the G#. Chicuelo is one I can think of that uses that chord as tonic often. Also the open or barred version in A phrygian is common. Also Granaina and other tonalities in modern practice use this suspended "levante" sounding harmony.

As an aside, a big fight with dr Whitehead and Mcguire was regarding Manolo Sanlucar's assesment that it would be more "correct" to pass from this voicing (Bm7b5/E) to the Aminor chord for cante when this occurs, for the simple reason that it does not strongly tonicize the relative key of A minor, and keeps our ear more grounded to the E phrygian modality.

In the context of non phrygian type cantes, that are in MINOR keys, you will indeed find the chord used more often as described earlier ii-V-i....(Bm7b5-E7- Am). IN major keys it is used to borrow from the parrallel minor (in guajiras for example the same move, but end on A major for the cante)....or it can be used as a substitute and vice versa of F major (the VI) chord.

In guitar solo pieces it's usage is too numerous to mention. Check out Escudero's Impetu for an example of Em7b5 used extensively.

I have mentioned before that to me the andalusian cadence is just the circle of 5th progression of classical music in disguise. So in fact, you can use it that way for cante too. Think buleria:
Dm-C-Bb-A.
Dm (Gm) C (F) Bb (Em7b5) A

The typical sub for this progression for the Em7b5 would be Gm or Bb/Ab because those chords have perfect fiths in the voicing that simply sound better when resolving solidly to the A tonic.

Ricardo

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2011 17:42:06
 
mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: the fifth degree in flamenco modes (in reply to Ricardo

Ricardo thanks for the complete reply.

quote:

So in a sense the reason you don't notice it so much is because it is used SO OFTEN



I understand what you said with the F#, but then i'm a bit lost with what you said in the next paragraph with the transposition in E, the bar in A and the B. Could you provide some example?

quote:

The typical sub for this progression for the Em7b5 would be Gm or Bb/Ab because those chords have perfect fiths in the voicing that simply sound better when resolving solidly to the A tonic.

Nice.
So when resolving, we substitute the m7b5 chord.
And when we begin a progression, we avoid it. Using the A7 (passing chord) to land on Dm (according to the letra). (?)

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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2011 18:33:30
 
Tomrocker

Posts: 404
Joined: Apr. 18 2010
From: Italy

RE: the fifth degree in flamenco modes (in reply to mezzo

quote:

the fifth degree in flamenco modes 


Mezzo.. Thank you so much for bringing this up. I do a modern electric guitar lessons only for the theory part and it is so damn useful

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2011 20:22:32
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14993
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: the fifth degree in flamenco modes (in reply to mezzo

quote:



I understand what you said with the F#, but then i'm a bit lost with what you said in the next paragraph with the transposition in E, the bar in A and the B. Could you provide some example?


In E phrygian this chord:

0
3
2
3
2
0

The half dim 7 would be BDFA, if you leave off the third, then this chord is also effective the same way:
0
0
2
3
2
0


Barre 5th fret in A phrygian, again Chicuelo ended his buleria in Encuentro with this:
5
5
7
8
7
5

And por medio open see the last vid of Antonio Rey's buleria
0
3
3
2
0
x
or Paco arps this in El Tempul, notice the minor third of E-half dim is back:
3
3
3
2
0
X

in Granaina:
0
0
5
4
2
X

Imposing the diminshed chord , or half diminished, over the tonic gives a nice "open" sound with no third present. In a way the purpose in flamenco IS to give the "Taranta" vibe, and is a major reason why the different keys we play in also take on different "aire", but we can mimic the different aires associated with other keys, by clever voicings.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2011 22:10:51
 
cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: the fifth degree in flamenco modes (in reply to mezzo

Curious why Do is not shown... only Do#? Goes for some of the others also... Why?

This stuff can induce headaches pretty fast.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 17 2011 1:41:35
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14993
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: the fifth degree in flamenco modes (in reply to cathulu

quote:

ORIGINAL: cathulu

Curious why Do is not shown... only Do#? Goes for some of the others also... Why?

This stuff can induce headaches pretty fast.


Because F, G, C, and A# are not associated as phrygian tonic for any palo. Therefore you can omit the use of their vm7b5 chords (C, D, G, or F/E# respectively). I admit they have been passed through (brief modulation) or used with altered tunings but not standard keys to learn for general flamenco.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 17 2011 4:19:09
 
mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: the fifth degree in flamenco modes (in reply to Ricardo

Thanks for that chords Ricardo.

Tomrocker you're welcome.
This info was already present on the foro, if you made search, you could find topics and posts explaining the various modes.
Nice thing is that table gives a good overview. But it's just super basic. It tells you the chord family but not precise if it's F7 or C9...

The D natural mode is also considered phrygian?
Coz what i notice is there are 7 degrees and 7 modes (8 with the D natural).
As for the scale pattern (for the picado) there are also 7 differents.

Regarding minor and major key for the cante, it would be nice if you or someone else could precise, following the same structure as the pic above, the chord/degree?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Edit: I'd just to clarify something maybe unclear

quote:

mezzo:
So when resolving, we substitute the m7b5 chord.
And when we begin a progression, we avoid it. Using the A7 (passing chord) to land on Dm (according to the letra). (?)

What i meant was if the 1st degree is the resolution chord, the final chord of a progression.
What about the beginning of a progression?
In a solea de alcala (E) or a tientos (A) some of the letra begin with the E7 to Am or A7 to Dm.
So as I understand the trick, these E7 and A7 are not from the 1st degree, but they're the passing chord from V to IV. right?
The confuzion come from that these passing chords are from the same family as the 1st degree.

So as you said vm7b5 : "It is a weak chord to begin with because it does not contain a perfect 5th."
While starting a progression, guitaristas prefer to play the passing chords instead of the Vth? Or these chords are from the 1st degree?

quote:

a big fight with dr Whitehead and Mcguire ...

I remember that. Weird to fight like this just for a chord.
Btw my intention is not polemical, I'd just to understand what's going on with this Vth.

_____________________________

"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 17 2011 8:14:29
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