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Posts: 3497
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Anoushka Shankar , raga flamenco... (in reply to El Camino)
There is no such thing as "raga flamenco music." This is not flamenco at all. You may like it. You may enjoy the music. But it is not flamenco. In fact, I would argue that there is no such thing as "fusion" flamenco. There is music in which elements of flamenco can be detected, but it is not flamenco.
Cheers,
Bill
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: Anoushka Shankar , raga flamenco... (in reply to El Camino)
quote:
Yes i know its not flamenco music ffs get a grip you tools .
I like this comment. At least the cajon playing was not overwhelming and blended well with the other instruments. But the mouth harp reminded me of that terrible farting sound of the bass playing in Paco's band. I suppose every fusion attempt has some kind of fart sounds.
RE: Anoushka Shankar , raga flamenco... (in reply to El Camino)
Sorry, I'm not getting the hate. I listened to the buleria embedded above and it sounds like something that could have been included in Miguel Czachowski's "Indialucia" album which I think some people on here liked.
It's not pure flamenco but at least that buleria track stays true to its rhythmical and harmonic roots. The dance number above that was a bit crap but all in all..I think there is much more offensive stuff to worry about.
RE: Anoushka Shankar , raga flamenco... (in reply to Munin)
quote:
I think there is much more offensive stuff to worry about.
I found very little offensive about this project. After all, super humanly beautiful women playing and dancing have as much right as anyone to do fakemenco or Fauxindiobaile.
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Anoushka Shankar , raga flamenco... (in reply to El Camino)
Not real virtuosic there. Skakti is a cool fusion of indian and western elements but the level is way up from Anoushka here. The idea of using flamenco beats is not new, but as per usual the non flamenco musicians dont' get the point of the remate and keep leading up to the down beat with their phrasing. THe piano player was the only one that was doing the remates in her "buleria". And even the piano stopped doing it when they did the trade offs.
The other issue is of course that flamenco makes more use of harmony (chord and key changes) then eastern modal concepts allow for. Chicuelo interviewed in Qwwali DVD shows his frustration of merging the two musics together for that reason.
I for one think a fusion CAN be made, it needs very high levels from both sides and mutual understandings of ALL the aspects of the two musics, not just mathematics of the beat cycle. Thing like llamada and remate and cambio chords and such would make a really interesting collaboration with high level indian musicians. Vice a versa, the flamenco guitar/piano/percussionist would need to be familiar with the classical Kanakol patterns of a certain raga so the improvisations of either side of the table can communicate.
Just my opinion, and so far I have not seen this type of thing done yet.
RE: Anoushka Shankar , raga flamenco... (in reply to El Camino)
So in essence Ricardo are you saying this does not work because Anouschka does not know how to accompany cante'? That's what I hear. There's never breathing space, no matter how dazzling the playing is, it does not ever give you a place to enter into it. Being remate' challenged it continues to push you out instead of draw you in.
RE: Anoushka Shankar , raga flamenco... (in reply to El Camino)
Not sure about the connection between Indian 'classical' music and flamenco, but flamenco sure owes a lot to Indian 'gypsy' music. Check out this clip from Latcho Drom, by the same guy who brought you 'Vengo'.
RE: Anoushka Shankar , raga flamenco... (in reply to El Camino)
You guys just reminded me why I stopped coming here. I just caught wind of this album. I'm a huge fan of Indian Carnatic Music and of Anoushka Shankar. Thought I'd come to the forum and see if the album had gotten any buzz here. I'm quite disappointed with the reaction. It seems the stench of elitism is still ripe.
I don't care for "fakemenco", either. However, fakemenco is generally a guy who noodles around with a harmonic minor scale over some Spanishy sounding chords and rhythms and passes it off as flamenco. Now, this isn't necessarily a bad thing. No one goes from listening to Metallica to Paco Pena. There generally is a gradual acclimation to the style. Maybe the listener hears a passage in a Metallica song that drawn him into the "Eastern sound". He then may discover Strunz & Farrah or the DeLucia/DiMeola/McLaughlin albums. Gradually his tastes adapt as he is more welcoming of strict flamenco.
In any event, this is not the case with the magnificent Indialucia album (anyone who doesn't like that album/group should be hung, drawn, and quartered, in my opinion) or with Anoushka's new album. In these specific cases the artist has fully studied the respective styles with utmost diligence and respect, and deftly combined them in the most palatable way while still remaining true to both forms.
It seems every forum I'm on has a group of traditionalists who scoff at the slightest deviation from their rigidly set narrow mindset of purity in the art. I love Carnatic music. There are literally thousands of albums by musicians playing Carnatic music, but guess what, they by and large all sound the same. I like Anoushka, because she is very diverse and is a big fan of other genres such as jazz and trance. She thus finds her own unique way of incorporating those elements while being careful not to totally water down the music. A true watering down are those lame yoga CD's and Indian dance music CD's that have a Sarangi playing off in the distance with some corny keyboard beat.
Much is the same with flamenco. It seems on this board everyone is obsessed with every guitarist sounding the same and never venturing past a set of strict boundaries. Anything to the contrary is met with pessimism. I listen to a lot of forms of music and play a multitude of instruments. I'm on forums for all kinds of instruments, and unfortunately this attitude is exemplified on all of them. "This isn't country!!" "This isn't metal!!" "This isn't jazz!!" "This isn't bachata!!" I guess there's no real solution. /rant
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Anoushka Shankar , raga flamenco... (in reply to polishcomedy)
quote:
You guys just reminded me why I stopped coming here.
Oh shoot....no never mind forget what i said before. Her compas is brilliant, her technique puts all other great musicians named "Shankar" to shame! I love the whole idea it is GREAT!!!! The haters are tools!!!! TOOLS I say!!!!!
RE: Anoushka Shankar , raga flamenco... (in reply to Ricardo)
I never said you had to enjoy her music or agree with me, but belittling it because it doesn't meet your technical requirements is absurd. Flamenco in its purest form is basic, and the flashy falsettas of current day are looked down on in many circles. As a matter of fact i understand purists dont even respect players not from Andalucia, or at the minimum, Spain, so being that youre from the states perhaps your work is invalid. Just sayin.
In any event, perhaps this tune from her new album is more of your liking:
RE: Anoushka Shankar , raga flamenco... (in reply to El Camino)
Hey just would precise that my post was not sarcastic! So no consider me a hater coz I'm not that closed mind Btw, I don't know what's raga is. I never heard about Anoushka before I found these vids, but I enjoyed them and wanted to share.
Quoting myself : "it seems instruments are speaking! " Damn! I just received this on my mail. It really seems that there's a cantaor inside I can almost guess the letras!
Would like to know what the septik think about that? Is still flamenco for ya?
On the other hand for those eami lovers, here is also a tune I'd like to know what they think about? Is that a FAKEmco tune? A sacrilège maybe?
just curious
_____________________________
"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Anoushka Shankar , raga flamenco... (in reply to polishcomedy)
quote:
I never said you had to enjoy her music or agree with me, but belittling it because it doesn't meet your technical requirements is absurd.
hmm. I never said her technique was a problem. I just said she was not virtuoso. Virtuoso means more then technique to me, it is the whole overall level of a performer including expression. I don't find players performing WELL within their abilities virtuosos. You have to push it a little to get my attention. Maybe she is on the edge but I don't feel it. With other fusions I have felt that struggle. It should be a struggle unless you are just entertaining. But I am moved by artists that are going that extra mile of effort to communion with other high level artists of a different genre.
The link you gave is better musically, but still it is a tanguillo. She has the timing but where is a remate? For tanguillo it is pretty easy...just lead into to one and Wack beat 2. But there is no special beat 2 in this. To me that is the extra mile the fusioner needs to go. But that is just me...
Just ME not the whole foro OK?
quote:
As a matter of fact i understand purists dont even respect players not from Andalucia, or at the minimum, Spain, so being that youre from the states perhaps your work is invalid. Just sayin.
can of worms but actually I am such a purist at times and yeah, it's a problem I view of myself. All the time I know it but some others think I am spanish when I perform authentically...then some get pissed to learn I am not spanish and seem to demand an explaination and I have to explain what exactly....my whole life story? Anyway I can't help it but to do the best I can and be respectful to the art while being myself at the same time. Being myself is easy....being respectful to the art is the hard part...hence the "extra mile" hence my frustration with these fusion attempts ....etc.
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