Something caught my eye

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >>

Page: [1]

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

Something caught my eye

What is it and why do you think he does this?

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2011 2:28:33

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Something caught my eye (in reply to Sean)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sean

What is it and why do you think he does this?

It's possible that his solid lining is not wide enough, like the Miguel Rodriguez lining, and he feels that this would add extra support to help with installing his binding purfling for top, back, and sides. It also might cause a higher frequency level to the sound. However, if the solid lining was a little wider, like in the two part laminate of the Miguel Rodriguez classical models, it might not be necessary.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2011 9:05:45

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Something caught my eye (in reply to Sean)

The extra lining blocks and colour of the harmonic bars is what originally caused me to look but there is another detail I noticed about this guitar.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2011 13:31:20

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Something caught my eye (in reply to Sean)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sean

The extra lining blocks and colour of the harmonic bars is what originally caused me to look but there is another detail I noticed about this guitar.

Looks like laminated sides. His shop is a cluttered mess. I couldn't work in that kind of disorder.

_____________________________

John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2011 15:36:50

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Something caught my eye (in reply to Sean)

quote:

His shop is a cluttered mess. I couldn't work in that kind of disorder.

Nor could I.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2011 15:54:39

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Something caught my eye (in reply to Sean)

Ok here's a hint, Spruce or Cedar soundboard?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2011 18:23:25

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Something caught my eye (in reply to Sean)

quote:

Ok here's a hint, Spruce or Cedar soundboard

uhh.. spruce?

_____________________________

Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2011 20:05:03

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Something caught my eye (in reply to Sean)

I'll leave it up for a few more hours see who catches it. Should be up Stephen Faulk's alley if my guess is right on this detail. No more clues

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2011 21:08:09

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Something caught my eye (in reply to Sean)

One strange thing is that the sides and the harmonic bars actually seem to be painted red with some kind of varnish, you can tell because he kind of slopped some on part of the top linings, and the top of the back linings are not red.

I don't see anything strange about the top, you can't see any grain lines but I think that's just the distance and the focus.

_____________________________

Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2011 21:25:38

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Something caught my eye (in reply to Sean)

He left globs of glue on the brace ends but that's pretty common Spanish practice.

_____________________________

Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2011 21:29:38

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Something caught my eye (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deteresa1

One strange thing is that the sides and the harmonic bars actually seem to be painted red with some kind of varnish, you can tell because he kind of slopped some on part of the top linings, and the top of the back linings are not red.

I don't see anything strange about the top, you can't see any grain lines but I think that's just the distance and the focus.

You're right Andy, I thought the sides were laminated but when I increased the magnification I could see that there is some kind of finish or stain on the inside. Very sloppy work and the guitar appears to be built like a tank. I'm unimpressed with his craftsmanship. Do you think those are cedar braces on a spruce top? That's what we've been using for over 40 years so it doesn't seem strange to me at all.

_____________________________

John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2011 21:35:34

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Something caught my eye (in reply to Sean)

Very very close Andy, almost got it

The guitar is coral wood, paduak by the way so some of the redness of the harmonic bars and linings is probably light reflexion.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2011 22:48:08

NenadK

Posts: 137
Joined: Jun. 6 2010

RE: Something caught my eye (in reply to Sean)

Excuse my ignorance but who is this guy?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 2 2011 1:42:18

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Something caught my eye (in reply to Sean)

The maker is Juan Montero Aguilera, a Spanish luthier for the past 50+ years. The craftsmanship is clean, the drop of glue on the ends of the fan braces is indeed common old school.
What stands out is the white substance painted on the soundboard, which is smeared a little on some of the top lining in places. The fan struts are spruce, you can see a big difference in the colour between the fan struts and the soundboard which has no apparent grain lines. This paduak negra could be either cedar or spruce as the site the picture is from has one of each for sale.

Now for my guess on what this white paint like substance could be.
Gesso popped into my head for some reason, it's used in the art world by painters as a primer and canvas stiffener, it's also white. I looked up gesso, the original formula is basically chalk and thinned out hide glue, thinner then paint.

Could this be a cedar top negra with gesso painted on the inside of the soundboard as some kind of stiffener or hardener? Has anyone heard of such a thing, rumours, old stories from the past perhaps?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 2 2011 2:49:00

estebanana

Posts: 9367
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Something caught my eye (in reply to Sean)

He wants to be a modern painter. :)

Curious. I like it and I like his messed up shop. It's very unusual. I've never seen anything like that. Maybe it's just white shellac. Some guys like to varnish or shellac the inside and he ran out of clear shellac or does not care. It would add slight surface tension to the plate, but not much.

It would also serve to tame some of the overtone series, which could be good or bad depending on how you deploy the material inside guitar. The coating inside would provide damping and perhaps he has calculated by experience he needs to have that to tone down the a thin top from being tinny. or he may be going totally daft in old age. I would be curious what he says about it.

Those fat liners with the blocks. The idea there is create stiffness around the rim, so the top does not expend energy on vibrating movable sides. Some have thought that rigidity in the sides and rim is good for the top to have a platform to vibrate on top of without distorting the sides with the flex of the top. The concept is that this adds to projection and clarity.

I've tried this and messed with it, it's actually a pretty old idea, but some modern makers have revived it and called it their own by making up proprietary names for it. (there's nothing new under the Sun) It's mostly ****y guitar voodoo talk. Except some designs do work on this principle, Smallman, etc, but in my opinion not flamenco guitars. I think flamenco guitars need some give and flex in the body structure to impart that voice.
I see narrower, less intrusive glue blocks and flatter tops adding a lot to flamenco sound. But the few flamencos I built with laminated liners are intense.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 2 2011 3:38:49

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Something caught my eye (in reply to Sean)

quote:

Spanish luthier for the past 50+ years.

Spanish men are famous for not cleaning anything but their car.

Who says this guitar is a flamenco? He´s doing everything to make the edges of the soundboard stiff.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 2 2011 7:28:59

estebanana

Posts: 9367
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Something caught my eye (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

Who says this guitar is a flamenco? He´s doing everything to make the edges of the soundboard stiff.

I was not saying it was a flamenco, just that I think and you too probably that stiffening the edges too much makes then sound more classical. But what do I know.
Do you agree about flamencos working better with less stiff edges?

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 2 2011 21:49:00

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Something caught my eye (in reply to Sean)

He is retired with a very low output, a search for his classical guitars came up nothing, I believe he is more of a flamenco specialist. The site the picture is from has two of his coral negras for sale one from 2007 the other 2008, he supplies them one guitar a year. The description of his guitars sound is sweet and lyrical so your probably right about it leaning towards classical. I was more interested in the substance applied to the soundboard, I thought perhaps it was something that was done way back in the past for awhile and given up on kind of like the tornovaz.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 3 2011 2:26:40

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Something caught my eye (in reply to Sean)

I'm not a Smallman fan, I would never have given up a Fleta for one. The Smallman back concept I think is pointless, it gives up tone with its deadness to boost projection in a world of necessary amplification.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 3 2011 2:57:34

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Something caught my eye (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

Do you agree about flamencos working better with less stiff edges?

Yes.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 3 2011 7:39:54

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Something caught my eye (in reply to Sean)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sean

He is retired with a very low output, a search for his classical guitars came up nothing, I believe he is more of a flamenco specialist. The site the picture is from has two of his coral negras for sale one from 2007 the other 2008, he supplies them one guitar a year. The description of his guitars sound is sweet and lyrical so your probably right about it leaning towards classical. I was more interested in the substance applied to the soundboard, I thought perhaps it was something that was done way back in the past for awhile and given up on kind of like the tornovaz.

It could possibly be egg white to seal the wood as this was used for a sealer to the old shellac finishes many years ago. I don't remember what it was mixed with but I think some old finish books might have the mix. Personally, I use only shellac to seal spruce and cedar tops.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 3 2011 10:40:04

estebanana

Posts: 9367
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Something caught my eye (in reply to Sean)

Egg white was mainly used by itself as a sealer, but it stays clear. It can be mixed with a few things that would make it white, lead white or lead with calcium carbonate. But those mixtures would only add way too much damping to the guitar. And there no reason to put egg white on the inside.

I but it's just white shellac. I think it's also a misjudgment to think that sealing the in side protects the guitar from seasonal or humidity changes.
Re: Smallman style, the people who build them always say "Oh no they don't sound like banjos at all, they sound like Spanish guitars." Every one of them I've ever heard sounded either like a banjo or a harp. Sounding like a harp is not such a bad thing, but even the one I hear on recordings by John Williams sound like banjos. I was listening tot the radio the other day and it was recording of his version of Aranjuez piece and it sounded like a banjo in the core of the sound.

Once the classical guitarist Philip Rochegar, a guy who is not famous but should be, said to me he wished classical guitar sounded played more lie flamenco guitars. He said he wanted to record back with a flamenco guitar. Ever since then I wanted to make a deep bodied flamenco guitar with a big plantilla. Philip said that most recording artists in his opinion go for the wrong kind of sound when recording the Spanish composed pieces. he said they should pick big flamenco sounding guitars that have a rough voice but will have a singing quality. It's a difficult guitar to make, but I always hear that sound in my head when I hear recordings of Spanish rep. on "Germanic" sounding cold guitars.

Some top classical players have told me they need those "banjo" guitars because they are loud. And said he loves the romantic Spanish sound, but it's not practical for everything. I digress, but I want to make that rough voiced singer.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 3 2011 21:30:33

kominak

Posts: 135
Joined: Apr. 20 2010

RE: Something caught my eye (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

quote:

Do you agree about flamencos working better with less stiff edges?

Yes.

Would you guys explain a little bit about this one?
I listened to a lot of flamenco guitar samples and kinda got a feeling that solid (or laminated) linings help achieve somewhat more solid, rounder tone (= modern, lyrical flamenco tone in my ears).
I know there are many more variables involved but am I close? That less stiff edges help achieving old school, raspy tone?
I went with solid 3mm thick cedar linings for my first build, I'll see how will she sound.

_____________________________

Martin Kominak
Slovakia

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 4 2011 10:17:29