Stage monitor location *behind*

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Stage monitor location *behind* - WHY??

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turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010

Stage monitor location *behind* - WHY??

Can anyone explain with first hand knowledge why flamenco musicians from Spain so often are seen on stage with their monitors behind them, pointing toward the audience? And the microphone!
This is normally a recipe for feedback, but I'm the hands of, say Paco's sound man, it works. What's the story, and has anyone used this idea with success?
Thanks

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2011 5:01:28

Guest

RE: Stage monitor location *behind* ... (in reply to turnermoran)

two sends or more...
one with side fill with higher volume
the ones behind at a lower volume generally placed on either side of the directional field of the mic if using two monitors [like tomatito] or one on the left...

i guess it's also knowing your microphone's pattern and sensitivity
ther body also acts , to some degree, as a shield between the mic and the spaeaker.
find the nuemanns and AKg's work particulary well...

i always have my amp behind me on left
when i'm not using that and have a foldback instead, i like it placed there as well
but side fill helps overall
played with yamandu last adelaide guitar festival and this was the general set up he liked ie...behind...it sounds much sweeter. in fact he demanded the front foldback be turned off and only side fill and behind monitoring...
found most players of his level DONT like alot of volume on stage so feedback is rarely an issue

to be honest i hate foldback in front pointing upward...more a recipe for feedback or unwanted frequencies for acoustic guitars.....so i always go with behind or side fill...maybe i'm just wierd but have done it this way for a dercade or so...
not sure that helps. but it is my experience in my very limited Tech vocab.

PS just read the fine print so the 'SPAIN' bit is an unknown just pointing out its used elsewhere.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2011 5:47:46

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Stage monitor location *behind* ... (in reply to turnermoran)

i've noticed this too. very weird.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2011 5:48:59

turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010

RE: Stage monitor location *behind* ... (in reply to Guest)

Thanks Al! Though I'm not familiar w/ a couple terms you used:
"two sends or more" - do you mean 2 monitor mixes?

"foldback" - what is this? a wedge monitor?
"side fill" - what is this? placement of monitor so the sound fills the space in the mic pattern's null area?

My experience w/ sound engineers here in the US is that many get very insistent on doing it they way they want, as it gives them to confidence in knowing that at least one variable is a constant and is under their control. Makes sense, but doesn't give the performer much latitude to find what works for them.

How would you analyze the following monitor placements?:

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2011 16:59:08

turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010

RE: Stage monitor location *behind* ... (in reply to turnermoran)

...and..

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2011 17:05:23

turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010

RE: Stage monitor location *behind* ... (in reply to turnermoran)

..and

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2011 17:08:18

Ricardo

Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Stage monitor location *behind* ... (in reply to turnermoran)

side fills are just monitors downstage off to the sides....a necessity for dancers. I guess the monitors behind don't obstruct view and also give some clear sound to the audience. I hate that monitors facing musicians send back tons of bass frequencies out to the audience. But true you can't have em loud. But honestly, speakers in front also feedback just as bad even though the mic is facing away. Depends on how loud you get em. I am happy if everyone can just hear what is going on. And I always let the engineer do his or her thing until I find something is just not acceptable.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2011 22:32:36

turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010

RE: Stage monitor location *behind* ... (in reply to Ricardo)

Have you guys found that mics and monitors and amount of musicians etc (everything we're talking about) is all about stage size? Meaning, larger stages allow for more space between musicians, thus making these issues more workable?

Because my experience has been that most stages are really cramped for space. The headstock of my guitar is often a foot or less away from the next musician. And we're sharing a monitor.

Under these conditions, I've found mics to bleed, low stage volume to be difficult when the person next to you is a sax player or percussionist., etc etc. The notion of each musician getting 1 (or 2) monitors to place how they like them is compromised by the musicians sharing monitors and different things everyone wants in their monitor mix.

All of this results in everyone I know using undersaddle pickups. However, I don't play with flamenco musicians (usually). It's more like Brazilian stuff.
Anyway, my fascination is how flamenco guitarists have been able to avoid drilling their guitars and can effectively use mics when so many other genres seem to not work with mics. OR, other genres end up in clubs, on tiny stages, where a bunch of condenser mics don't work.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2011 22:49:34

Guest

RE: Stage monitor location *behind* ... (in reply to turnermoran)

hi Brian..
i guess an analogy is why electric guitarists don't have there amps facing them...
sorry for the terms in OZ we call monitoring foldback...
side fill is monitoring on the side of the stage generally [not always] placed on stands so at a general 'ear' level...
the sends means as you said...
i really cant see the rest of the monitoring set up in the pics but i would imagine some are to stage right and left...out of general view ;filling' the area with sound.
in the case of Paco i imagine there would be a 'mix' of what the ensemble is doing, ...makes sense right? he needs to hear what the others are doing.
his 'sound' is blended in there with one of the monitors [different send] the other more about 'his' sound [different send]...so yes different mix in each.
in both cases the performer acts as an acoustic 'shield' limiting the feedback possibility..so guess it would squeal once the performer is out of the picture....this is based on experience with our Trio.

in the end i guess volume and the Tech etc is the key...
i understand that many Tech's live in a world where the performer is saying ''more monitoring' till the point where there is way too much volume on stage...
on thing i noticed at our recent festival was the general term 'less monitoring'...
trying to get 'hi-fi' live sound on stage...clarity without masses of confusing and muddy volume...lots of headroom but not volume if that makes sense.
in yamandu's case [as i did ask him about this] he liked the idea of minimal monitoring but wanted to 'hear' the front of house as well [to a certain degree]...though i imagine stadiums would be a different issue...in this case were talking about a 3000 seat venue...
again i feel your alot more tech savvy than myself. i just know what we prefer as a stage 'sound' and side fill and back monitoring eliminates the 'in your face' sound

but i would assume there could be to it than this.

quote:

It's more like Brazilian stuff.

same for me.

quote:

stage size?

The smaller the stage the more acoustic you play....less monitoring/amplification...minimal...right?..let the front of house do the work.
one theory is every ensemble will play to the level of the Bass player....the louder they are the louder we want to go....so...if your having those issues and work with a bass player get him to turn down...

quote:

bunch of condenser mics don't work.

many factors here...types of mics...etc...never found this an issue providing everyone is playing dynamically....also another key to making it work, sure your aware of that though.

Don't want to give you the impression that each mix we get is perfect because it is'nt but starting with minimal monitoring is our way of trying to get a good sound...and sometimes the tech insists on putting those wedges in our face....

the other thing i've noticed is when the room [audience] is quiet and listening we always get a good sound [ using akg or nuemanns etc...]
playing a noisy room is a nightmare for an acoustic guitar...don't think that issue will ever be solved...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2011 22:57:14