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Guest

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 3 2011 12:34:20

Haithamflamenco

Posts: 927
Joined: Mar. 6 2007
From: Bahrain

RE: Best way to handle Fakemenco players (in reply to Guest)

Rumbaking,

I am fully sporting you, I love that you are living flmenco in the real world not just behind the PC,

woooow... tow show to prepare that so cool man,

show us the video after mi amigo,

take care

haitham

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 3 2011 12:49:46

odinz

Posts: 407
Joined: May 26 2010
From: Sarpsborg,Norway

RE: Best way to handle Fakemenco players (in reply to Guest)

nuevo flamenco means new flamenco right? I allways think of Tomatito and Paco and Camaron, because it is not the old style.

Then I think of ottmar etc as fake, and they actually do hurt flamenco..

I was invited to play at a small dinner party thing, because I said I play flamenco, and classical.. well the guests were expecting quite something else, one of them mentioned that tv sales guy who plays so bad I cant even believe anyone would listen to him, and said that I should look him up to learn some real "spanish flamenco like malaguenas" and also started talking about that movie you post pictures of... and even mexico, I learned that apparently mariachi musicians play flamenco, enlightening.

And I say also, Jason is incredible, and douchebags is an appropriate word when they do this to flamenco, my sweet art

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 3 2011 13:10:54

Guest

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 3 2011 13:27:59

Guest

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 3 2011 13:31:08

Haithamflamenco

Posts: 927
Joined: Mar. 6 2007
From: Bahrain

RE: Best way to handle Fakemenco players (in reply to Guest)

Rumbaking,

I have another idea to deal with fakemenco

take his fake flamenco guitar , give him the smile on the photo, and start to

SMAAAAAAAAAAAASHHHHHHHHHHHHHH itttttttttt

just jocking

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 3 2011 13:37:08

Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

RE: Best way to handle Fakemenco players (in reply to Guest)

I would say if he is nice, be nice.

You can always make him listen to your type of stuff. He may know one technique or one little lick that you can benefit from.

There is nothing to be gained by alienating people who are different or who are ignorant for whatever reason of what real flamenco is. It's not like flamenco is an art that is all around us; especially in North America.

I try to learn/steal from everyone.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 3 2011 14:27:33

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Best way to handle Fakemenco players (in reply to Harry)

It may depend on why the fakemenco is fake ..beacuse he prefers it,? or because he doesnt know any better ?, maybe if you sensed an interest in different types of flamenco etc from him, then give him a listen to different palos, styles old and new and some of them may catch his attention and start him on a new path, he may even thank you for it one day , or you may get a new guitar pupil to teach,.. I wouldnt put him down for what he does, you may come off as a bit arrogant or snobbish from his point of view . someone buys a guitar it's up to them what they want to play on it. and if they like a certain style of music , of just make stuff up ( that may sound awful) thats OK , its up to them , I wouldn't put them down for it , if he wanted to learn something from you and you had the time , teach him a bit , if not let him get on with it and he may stumble across something else in some other place.
The one thing no-one mentioned is that if he really wants to learn a bit and have some flamenco friends to ask questions to , then tell him to join ...

http://www.foroflamenco.com

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 3 2011 14:52:50

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Best way to handle Fakemenco players (in reply to Guest)

There is no law that says flamenco players cant play other types of music. If you are in the situation where you get asked to play rumbas or classical pieces or covers then I think its OK, your training in Flamenco technique will make these things sound good. I think the main thing in your situation is to concentrate on keeping your technique clean and playing with flamenco aire. I play other non flamenco pieces all the time. Do it with conviction and its not fake.

The biggest critiscim of "Nuevo flamenco" (which I agree with) is that it presents itself as real Flamenco and misleads the general public into thinking they have an understanding of flamenco guitar music (hence the term fakemenco)
Its also led to a massive amount of youtube "teaching" videos of non flamenco players demonstrating so called flamenco material that will not help students develop if they are serious about learning flamenco.
Personally I have no problem with Rumbas or Nuevo flamenco playing in my car or at a party. What bugs me is when someone tells me "thats real flamenco, man!"

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 3 2011 15:23:41

Guest

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 3 2011 15:31:35

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Best way to handle Fakemenco players (in reply to Harry)

quote:

I would say if he is nice, be nice.

Absolutely. How many flamenco fans do you know who have admitted getting theirs start through Manitas de Plátanas?

Maybe the same thing happens with Jesse Cook. At least, I hope so.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 3 2011 15:42:16

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 3 2011 18:21:29

chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010

RE: Best way to handle Fakemenco players (in reply to Guest)

quote:

ORIGINAL: nealf

Treat them with respect.

YOUR opinion is YOURS and THEIRS is THEIRS ... period ... don't impose your view on them and vice versa.

Flamenco can be many things to many people, this world is already full of enough sh!t because of people telling other people what they should do, be, feel etc .... Let them enjoy their journey and you enjoy yours, live and let live.

This.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 3 2011 18:28:44

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Best way to handle Fakemenco players (in reply to Guest)

is there a reason to NOT nuke them?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 3 2011 19:20:08

FredSanford

Posts: 87
Joined: Sep. 13 2011

RE: Best way to handle Fakemenco players (in reply to chester)

There are many things that are absolutely NOT flamenco that get passed off as flamenco. Most of us realize this to be true. While I agree once things pass that threshold criticism is only an opinion.... before that threshold its not merely an opinion, its a fact. Ottmar is NOT flamenco. Not opinion.... a provable fact. He uses the term to lend prestige to his crappy music (an opinion) and has unfortunately for many real artists made a great profit from conducting business that way.

To put this in perspective we should apply similar circumstances to tangible products. A man trying to sell a piece of plastic fruit as a real and edible one. No opinion there. Plastic vs. Real. We would all call BS on the situation. Get the plastic crap out of the fresh produce section. Thats the point.

I think.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 3 2011 19:22:07

FullMetalGuitarist

Posts: 88
Joined: Aug. 22 2011

RE: Best way to handle Fakemenco players (in reply to chester)

quote:

The biggest critiscim of "Nuevo flamenco" (which I agree with) is that it presents itself as real Flamenco

quote:

Its also led to a massive amount of youtube "teaching" videos of non flamenco players demonstrating so called flamenco material

Agree with pimientito.

Its not about opinion. One can play whatever he wants in a way he wants BUT not to give it as another art (if you play jazz, you won't call it rock or metal)

YouTube is indeed a problem. Several years ago when I started learning flamenco I encountered many videos of that kind.
Many times when I see such I'm writing the author a polite private massage suggesting to change the video's name to "spanish style" and so on.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 3 2011 19:23:23

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 3 2011 19:25:12

chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010

RE: Best way to handle Fakemenco players (in reply to FredSanford)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FredSanford

There are many things that are absolutely NOT flamenco that get passed off as flamenco. Most of us realize this to be true. While I agree once things pass that threshold criticism is only an opinion.... before that threshold its not merely an opinion, its a fact. Ottmar is NOT flamenco. Not opinion.... a provable fact. He uses the term to lend prestige to his crappy music (an opinion) and has unfortunately for many real artists made a great profit from conducting business that way.

To put this in perspective we should apply similar circumstances to tangible products. A man trying to sell a piece of plastic fruit as a real and edible one. No opinion there. Plastic vs. Real. We would all call BS on the situation. Get the plastic crap out of the fresh produce section. Thats the point.

I think.

I hear what you're saying, Mr. Sanford, and agree with you on the 'call BS on the situation' bit but I think that being hostile towards these people is not the best course of action.

(not saying you're a hostile person - I knew a Fred once, he was a real standup guy)

As flamenco lovers and players we should strive to include and educate the uninitiated rather than sending them off thinking that flamenco is some exclusive club that only cool people can be a part of (even though it is and they're probably not cool enough to join).

Hell, when I started listening to music I was loving all kinds of crap (ie Larry Carlton) but now I can't get enough of Coltrane, Monk, Mingus, etc (sorry for the Jazz references but hopefully someone will get the point). Some people need to listen to the 'Four Seasons' before you get into Bartok.

Just my .015 Euros.

Cheers,
Chester B.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 3 2011 22:06:44

FredSanford

Posts: 87
Joined: Sep. 13 2011

RE: Best way to handle Fakemenco players (in reply to chester)

quote:

Some people need to listen to the 'Four Seasons' before you get into Bartok.

Don't you think comparing Fakemenco to "The Four Seasons" is a bit ridiculous?

No comparison. Bad analogy.

Respect is what is necessary and its what the fakers lack the most. Ignorance is not a good enough excuse for me.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 3 2011 22:23:06

BarkellWH

Posts: 3459
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Best way to handle Fakemenco players (in reply to FredSanford)

quote:

Respect is what is necessary and its what the fakers lack the most. Ignorance is not a good enough excuse for me.

Perhaps. I have no problem with calling someone out who is performing fake flamenco, or anything else for that matter. But call him out on the subject at hand. My objection is to namecalling and tossing out epithets, as some on the Foro seem to think acceptable with their embrace of the term "douchebag" to describe those they don't like. If respect is necessary, and I agree that it is, we should show a little ourselves, even to those whom we deem unacceptable practitioners of certain arts, music, etc. Criticize the poor or fraudulent performance without stooping to the level of juvenile, high school epithets hurled at the performer.

Cheers,

Bill

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 3 2011 22:40:38

FredSanford

Posts: 87
Joined: Sep. 13 2011

RE: Best way to handle Fakemenco players (in reply to BarkellWH)

quote:

Criticize the poor or fraudulent performance without stooping to the level of juvenile, high school epithets hurled at the performer.

You do realize this is flamenco we are talking about right? Douchebag is a pretty lightweight epithet compared to most language thrown around the table at most conversations on this and just about any other subject when it comes to flamencos.

But, you're right.... we should have respect for everyone if what we seek is respect. Touché.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 3 2011 23:27:49

chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010

RE: Best way to handle Fakemenco players (in reply to FredSanford)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FredSanford
Don't you think comparing Fakemenco to "The Four Seasons" is a bit ridiculous?

No comparison. Bad analogy.

Respect is what is necessary and its what the fakers lack the most. Ignorance is not a good enough excuse for me.

Vivaldi = easy listening = fakemenco

Of course he's a much better composer then let's say Jesse Cook, but my point was that you gotta start somewhere.

I don't see the connection between having respect and musical choices. If someone's a douche, it doesn't matter how puro his flamenco is - the guy's still a douche.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 4 2011 0:20:14

Ricardo

Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Best way to handle Fakemenco players (in reply to Guest)

quote:

C. Engage him in a guitar duel....which I have no doubt I will dominate...but in reality what's the point even if I show him up as being a fake

Absolutely the best choice. A- not good since talking doesn't do much....B, no good because makes you seem snobby and closed, and D no good because friendship without honesty is pointless. Perhaps "duel" is not such a good word because it implies a loser and winner, but I always feel that actually PLAYING with other musicians is always the number one important way to communicate specifics on taste and musicality and then no need to boast about ones ability as all the cards are on the table.

There was a quote of J. Mclaughlin I can't remember exact, but he says with music (meaning actually playing it with others not talking about it) we are instantly confronted by our own inadequacies. When egos break down, learning begins.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 4 2011 7:32:00

FredSanford

Posts: 87
Joined: Sep. 13 2011

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 4 2011 7:58:43

FredSanford

Posts: 87
Joined: Sep. 13 2011

RE: Best way to handle Fakemenco players (in reply to chester)

quote:

Of course he's a much better composer then let's say Jesse Cook, but my point was that you gotta start somewhere.

Start with Sabicas, Niño Ricardo and Ramon Montoya. Its a better place to start than Jesse Cook....... trust me.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 4 2011 8:02:19

Ricardo

Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Best way to handle Fakemenco players (in reply to Guest)

Best way to handle fakemenko guys or any musician guy problems:

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 6 2011 19:56:39

beno

Posts: 881
Joined: Nov. 3 2006
From: Hungary

RE: Best way to handle Fakemenco players (in reply to Guest)

quote:

When egos break down, learning begins

good and true one.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 6 2011 20:04:42

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Best way to handle Fakemenco players (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Best way to handle fakemenko guys

I gotta say that is a funny video , , however I dont think i could deal with a fakemenco guy in that way , I mean it wouldnt be the same if I wore the dress, would it?

good find , Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 6 2011 20:31:13