RE: Tabs versus standard notation

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gbv1158

Posts: 410
Joined: May 29 2009
From: Italy

RE: Tabs versus standard notation (in reply to terry70)

quote:

I think both are quite useful. When one reads standard notation well, I think THE MUSIC is much more accesible or should I say understandable in terms of rhythym, harmony, melody, etc. working as one cohesive unit making a piece or song. I think notation is the written language for music, while tab is more of an instructional diagram.

I totally agree.

ciao
Giambattista

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2011 22:23:19

chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010

RE: Tabs versus standard notation (in reply to rombsix)

Easier to read unusual block chords in tab (ie Gm/G# that's pretty prevalent in flamenco).

Easier to see the melodic line and figure out phrasing with notation (you can see the line going up or down when in TAB all you see are numbers). Also notation is a universal language independent of instruments - better for communicating between musicians.

I tend to agree with stratos13; I'm pretty good at sight reading but tend to read from the tabs when reading through run-of-the-mill idiomatic flamenco falsetas.

Just my 2 cents..

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2011 22:31:00

Ricardo

Posts: 14892
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Tabs versus standard notation (in reply to rombsix)

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=87253&appid=&p=&mpage=2&key=standard%2Cnotation&tmode=&smode=&s=#87489

I feel standard is better overall if you are good with it. THe issue of altered tunnings is important because it is the main reason tabs are easier to visualize "grips" as I call em. What i did for Nuñez Solxbul in EbAbDbGBE tuning, I wrote it all as if tuned normal for the sake of visualizing the fingering (so lots of Sharp accidentals were used because key sig was natural), although musically this is sort of "wrong" to do, but shows that standard notation can surely keep up with tab even on the grips issue.

The other draw back to tabs is notating rhythms such as Whole or Half notes etc because it interferes with the numbers on the lines a bit. I still feel that having both in either score form or as separate parts is ideal for guitar music in general.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2011 23:12:17

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Tabs versus standard notation (in reply to keith)

quote:

To write it in staff notation you have to write two notes and six ledger lines

No top E is only 3 ledger lines, remember I read the spaces in between. you still have to write 2 notes.

quote:

Doesn’t help when you have lower voices in the normal octaves.

This all depends on a specific passage , I wasn't really thinking of anything , notation is written the easiest way to be read , it's not made to catch you out ..

quote:

The problem is vertical spacing, not horizontal.

Again depending on the music , vertically you only have 5 lines instead of 6

quote:

Can you sight-read Koyunbaba, which is in C# minor tuning?

I sight read best in what I use the most , of course , which would be standard tuning and also with low D, some Rondeña tuning at the moment , perhaps , you get used to different tunings , the question goes back to you , using TAB can you sight read in Koyunbaba?

I just have to go back to before, it's only easy(er) for me cos I have done a lot of it , for a long time, on different instruments , TAb would have its place and OK for many others , thats fine , but I still say its not as flexible and definatly not universal musically.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2011 23:22:34

xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1900
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: Tabs versus standard notation (in reply to El Kiko)

i just did...first time i have heard this piece, its weird and fascinating!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2011 23:42:37

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Tabs versus standard notation (in reply to El Kiko)

quote:

top E is only 3 ledger lines

But you have a bass E to go with it, so that’s another 3.

I sometimes wonder who the clown was who started writing guitar music on the treble clef an octave higher than it sounds; it would be easier if it were written on two staves at pitch, like piano music. Then you wouldn't need all those ledger lines, plus you’d be able to read piano music easily.

But I mentioned this to the composer John Duarte, and he said piano was more a question of right and left hands than pitch, so I dunno.

quote:

using TAB can you sight read in Koyunbaba?

As easily as I can sight-read anything else in tab.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 1 2011 0:09:24

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: Tabs versus standard notation (in reply to gbv1158)

One obvious downside to Tab is, it does you no good unless you've heard
the music before.

Normal standard tableture doesnt include the rhythmic values of notes.

Tabs that include rhythmic values arent really standard tabs. They are a hybrid.
You cant read rhythmic values unless you have that skill from reading standard notation.

Things like Guitar Pro create a huge gray area between tab and notation.
Being able to play the notes off the page with midi data is a whole nother thing.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 1 2011 0:39:05

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Tabs versus standard notation (in reply to ToddK)

quote:

One obvious downside to Tab is, it does you no good unless you've heard
the music before.

Normal standard tableture doesnt include the rhythmic values of notes.

Not so. Tablature has been including rhythmic values since at least the 16th century.

It’s possible to play from one of Faucher’s tabs (for instance) even if you’ve never heard the piece before; and in fact I’ve done so.

Just because there are lazy or incompetent people who don’t put timing on their tab, it doesn’t mean this is standard — any more than the fact that some people say nucular means that this is the standard pronunciation.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 1 2011 1:35:54

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Tabs versus standard notation (in reply to Paul Magnussen)

Yes different types of TAb have been in use for a long time , and also they have developed into music notation , although many people have experimented with different ways of notating music and in fact still are , music notation is the accepted universal way of notating all music from all instruments that are commonly in use .

I'm really not putting TAb down, I'm saying it's OK , I just don't see it as having any advantage ,
remember the origional question was

quote:

So the question is, why is tab much more common in flamenco guitar?

and the answer is, I think , that people who want to learn things quickly can use TAB as they see it as being easier to get along with from the begining as it's a kind of sketch of the fret board and finger locations, so if thats all you want it's fine and works for that reason.
Bearing in mind that many people ask for TAB for this or that tune having already heard the tune many times and now want to learn it . I mean a book of just TAB with no other reference such as notation , Midi , video or music , would be a bit less useful.
For learning flamenco the best of all is a teacher with a guitar in front of you to go through things, including nowadays a video link as Ricardo does.

Next best would be a CD or downloaded you tube type of lesson.
Of course before this new technology you would have to write things down to remember them or pass them on to others , and TAB works just well for this purpose, it is really specific to the guitar, for flamenco, and you dont have to learn music notation or any thing else to get a grasp with it relatively quickly, again bearing in mind that you have an audio example to follow as well.
It would be of less use if you were working with other instruments, other types of music, scores and various ensembles, etc.
But you don't have to so TAB is fine .
There's no point getting a HGV license if you never ever will drive a truck.
However some of us came from different back grounds and play other instruments as well , or may have been to music college, and there fore can all ready sight read quite well.
This would be my case , so I already have a system which works just fine, so for me I don't really need the TAB , and I have learned quite a lot of stuff with just music notation alone.
Going back to first question , the answer would be that TAB is for guitar ,it helps people understand in an easy format some things that would otherwise be difficult to show.however if there was no guitar ,there would have been no development of TAB .
The two systems can exist along side of each other and be of use to all players, there is a lot of stuff, that you will probably have as well , that is written in both, this in itself is an indication that publishers know that some people want it one way and some another , or some may use a bit of both to double check there playing.
The advantage to me is (notation) is quicker and easier for me, and i could look at a book in a shop with no instrument at all and have a pretty good idea of how a piece was going to sound and how difficult it would be for me, pretty much straight away, I could never do this with TAB , maybe some amongst you could .

So really TAB is just fine for guitar and music notation encompasses more of the general world of music , including of course flamenco guitar.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 1 2011 9:52:44

Ricardo

Posts: 14892
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Tabs versus standard notation (in reply to gbv1158)

I want to ad something that was in the link I posted too, that I tend to trust more a
transcription with tab because it seems an actual guitar player might have done
the score, because the VAST majority of standard notation scores are not accurate
when it comes to what a guitarist actually played. With Rock guitar in the 80's, the
magazines started to approach this problem seriously with most students only
playing from the magazine and no longer buying song books and scores. With the
tabs and musical description we kids could actually play the song and make it
sound "right" and then do it with our band. It was a magical time.

Not surprising to discover the same problems with flamenco, when I see scores in
standard print that were done by a classical guitarists most likely. And some really
bad cases as with early PDL song books we have discussed in other threads.
Faucher is an exception but he does both notes and tab.

Anyway, of course there are still major problems with even tabbed scores. It takes
so much time to get it right, transcribing is an art itself. But now we have slow
downers and such that we don't really need even tabs anymore.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 1 2011 16:24:11

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Tabs versus standard notation (in reply to Ricardo)

This is a problem that just exists , not just accurate writing but accurate playing (interpretation) of a score/ piece so no matter how or what form it is written in , it's still only a "really good guide ' to an actual film / recording of the piece being played , with all its sound quality ,nuances etc.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 1 2011 17:07:55

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Tabs versus standard notation (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

I want to ad something that was in the link I posted too, that I tend to trust more a transcription with tab because it seems an actual guitar player might have done the score, because the VAST majority of standard notation scores are not accurate when it comes to what a guitarist actually played.

Good point, Ricardo. You’re probably to young to remember the first Sabicas transcriptions, the ones Hansen Music published before they were replaced with Joseph Trotter’s. They were utterly unplayable.

quote:

With Rock guitar in the 80's, the magazines started to approach this problem seriously with most students only playing from the magazine and no longer buying song books and scores. With the tabs and musical description we kids could actually play the song and make it sound "right" and then do it with our band. It was a magical time.

Right again. When the Beatles’ music was first published, it was in keys like E flat, and it was wrong even when you transposed it. They only changed when the sales dropped through the floor.

quote:

Anyway, of course there are still major problems with even tabbed scores. It takes so much time to get it right, transcribing is an art itself. But now we have slow downers and such that we don't really need even tabs anymore.

Why not? You mean you can remember a whole piece as soon as you’ve transcribed it? And anyway, what about the other poor slobs who have neither the time nor the skill to do an accurate transcription?

BTW I got hold of one one of Claude Worms’s Manolo books a while back. It’s pretty good, though there are still a few mistakes. But which of us is perfect? Even Faucher makes mistakes.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 1 2011 17:28:46

rombsix

Posts: 7830
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Tabs versus standard notation (in reply to Paul Magnussen)

quote:

Even Faucher makes mistakes.

In Faucher we trust? Or, dare I even take it all the way to "In Magnussen we trust?"

Just messin' with ya mate...

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 1 2011 17:37:42

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Tabs versus standard notation (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

What i did for Nuñez Solxbul in EbAbDbGBE tuning, I wrote it all as if tuned normal for the sake of visualizing the fingering

You’re in good company (Bach, among others); but this is problematic for people that hear the music in their heads as they read it, which is anybody with more than a few years of reading. Tab is a clear winner here.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 1 2011 20:25:05