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13 August: An Infamous Anniversary
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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 13 August: An Infamous Anniversary
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Today, 13 August, marks the infamous anniversary of the date in 1961, when the metaphorical "Iron Curtain" was made tangible with slabs of concrete across East Berlin's entire 27-mile border with West Berlin. The Berlin Wall was the only time in history that I can recall, that a wall was built to keep the people in, rather than to keep invaders out. The "Long Walls" of Athens were built to keep out the Persians, the "Great Wall" of China was built to keep out the Mongols, Hadrian's Wall in England was built to keep out invaders from the North. But the Berlin Wall was built to prevent East Germans from leaving. To keep the population in.
That the Berlin Wall came down 22 years ago is reason to celebrate, even today. I never thought I would see it happen in my lifetime, and I guess that is the reason I celebrate: Not only because the Wall came down, but also because it proved to me that history is not deterministic or pre-ordained. Sometimes things seem like they will go on forever, and then suddenly the ground shifts. The human spirit cannot be suppressed forever.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Aug. 13 2011 1:48:41
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: 13 August: An Infamous Anniversary (in reply to BarkellWH)
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In August, 1961 I was in the high jungle of Yucatan and northern Guatemala, walking with two American friends and one Mayan friend and camping. There was no communication of any kind with the outside world.
When I returned to Texas, I learned of the Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba, and the building of the Berlin Wall. As a direct result, i was drafted into the U.S. Army, although at the time I was both a graduate student and an instructor at the University of Texas.
The next October I was part of the Strategic Amy Command deployment in response to the Cuban Missile Crisis--the 82nd and 101st Airborne Divisions and the air mobile 4th Infantry Division. It was the nearest the world ever came to nuclear holocaust.
In November, 1989 I was at a dinner party at the Central Army Club of France in Paris. The heads of various delegations had to come to the back rooms to collect people and herd them through the formal reception line. We were all watching the Berlin Wall come down on TV. I had spent my career as a strategic intellectual in the Cold War. I was 51 years old, too young to retire, and too old to start a new career--or so I thought. I turned to a friend beside me, a French admiral about my age.
I said, "I wish I were ten years younger, or ten years older. But I don't care if I never have another job, as long as our children don't have to go through what you and I did."
RNJ
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Date Aug. 13 2011 22:40:31
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: 13 August: An Infamous Anniversary (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
Don't forget the fence along the 38th parallel. Basically keeps North Koreans inside under threat of being shot trying to cross. Although it was to built for more complex reasons, it does serve as a deterrent for exiting NK, it has effectively become that. It's been in place longer than the Berlin Wall was in place and it's had more fighting action.
I hear there's another wall in Israel that keeps people fenced in some out of the way place called Gaza. There are walls all over the world which keep people in countries they can't leave.
You are correct that the fence on the North Korean side of the DMZ was built for more complex reasons than just to keep the population in. North and South Korea are still technically at war. Nevertheless, the barriers have the effect of preventing the North Korean population from crossing the border, and any who attempted to do so would surely be shot by the North Korean military manning border posts.
Israel's wall is a completely different animal than the Berlin Wall. Israel built the wall, not to keep Israelis in (which would be analogous to the Berlin Wall), but to keep Palestinian terrorists in Gaza out (which is analogous to other walls in history).
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Aug. 14 2011 21:34:51
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: 13 August: An Infamous Anniversary (in reply to XXX)
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quote:
I guess for whatever reason the Isreali wall was built, it simply serves the purpose of a wall, just like any other wall in history... dont try to hide your political views behind such silly comments guys (keeps in, keeps out).
If you honestly do not understand the difference between a wall built by authorities to prevent people from leaving a country, and one built to prevent invaders and infiltrators from entering and attacking a country, then it is no wonder that you consider any such discussion as "silly comments." People often consider as "silly" that which they do not understand.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Aug. 14 2011 22:13:38
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: 13 August: An Infamous Anniversary (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
In out, in out, I was just trying to see why the Berlin Wall was so different than any other wall. All walls keep someone in and someone out.
I think that had you been an East German at the time, whose only exit from East Germany was cut off by the wall vs. an Israeli today, who can travel the world over in spite of the wall to keep out Palestinian terrorists, the difference would become much clearer.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Aug. 14 2011 22:42:13
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: 13 August: An Infamous Anniversary (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
I think that had you been an East German at the time, whose only exit from East Germany was cut off by the wall vs. an Israeli today, who can travel the world over in spite of the wall to keep out Palestinian terrorists, the difference would become much clearer.
Ah yes, but if you were a law abiding Palistinian caught behind the Gaza wall which is keeping a handful of terrorists out of Israel, but locking 100,000's in, you might consider this the main effect. The intention and actual result are two different things. In this light Gaza and East Berlin were not unlike in the final analysis. The intention may be different, but the effect is the same.
Not to mention walls made of typing paper; when I was leaving China as a student, our teacher reminded us not to invite the Chinese students we had become friends with to visit us in the US. Saying it would seem cruel to invite a person locked in a huge country who had no way of getting passport to leave.
The walls are made of different substances a concepts, but walls are keeping plenty of people in and not out. The USSR had other walls too, but those were permeable if you were Nureyev or Rostropovich or Solchenizyn .....but everyone else, stuck.
Romania had walls to keep people in......last summer I heard an amazing escape tale from a Romanian whom I got drunk with while he told his life story of how he came to the US through Romanian fences.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Aug. 14 2011 23:25:38
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: 13 August: An Infamous Anniversary (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
Ah yes, but if you were a law abiding Palistinian caught behind the Gaza wall which is keeping a handful of terrorists out of Israel, but locking 100,000's in, you might consider this the main effect. The intention and actual result are two different things. In this light Gaza and East Berlin were not unlike in the final analysis. The intention may be different, but the effect is the same.
It is true that thousands of law-abiding Palestinians are kept from entering Israel because their government failed to crack down on the terrorists among them, and, thus, Israel built the wall. Your analogy fails, though, when you state that "Gaza and East Berlin were not unlike in the final analysis." And the anology fails for the following reason: It was the government in East Berlin that built the wall to keep its population in; and in order for the Gaza situation to be analogous to Berlin, it would had to have been the government in Gaza who built the Gaza wall to keep its population in Gaza and out of Israel, which, as we know, clearly was not the case. Alternatively, had the Israelis built the wall to keep Israelis from traveling into Gaza, that would have been analogous to Berlin, but that, too, cleary was not the case. Again, there is a big difference in building a wall to keep your population from leaving (Berlin), and one designed to prevent invaders (Athens, China) and infiltrators (Israel) from entering.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Aug. 15 2011 0:10:12
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: 13 August: An Infamous Anniversary (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
Yes, but by your logic, you state that the Palestinian gov. failed to rein in the terrorists, by that logic it was the Palistian gov. that caused the wall to be built.
I cannot imagine the mental gymnastics you went through to reach that conclusion, Stephen.
On a completely different topic, but one relating to your other post today, I like your new headstock design. It really looks cool and the finish is great.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Aug. 15 2011 1:53:29
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XXX
Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
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RE: 13 August: An Infamous Anniversary (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
And the anology fails for the following reason: It was the government in East Berlin that built the wall to keep its population in; and in order for the Gaza situation to be analogous to Berlin, it would had to have been the government in Gaza who built the Gaza wall to keep its population in Gaza and out of Israel, which, as we know, clearly was not the case. Alternatively, had the Israelis built the wall to keep Israelis from traveling into Gaza, that would have been analogous to Berlin, but that, too, cleary was not the case. Again, there is a big difference in building a wall to keep your population from leaving (Berlin), and one designed to prevent invaders (Athens, China) and infiltrators (Israel) from entering.
The "difference" is that you are a conservative and Israel is Ally of the US.
Just like any other wall between countries on this planet, also this wall was built with the primary reason to secure the border. As you might know, West and East Germany weren't "best friends" and in a close-to-war state after WWII. West Germany claimed both territory and citizens of East Germany (to a minor degree also in Poland, SU). East Germany, being much inferior to the West, was dependant on the support by the SU. The moment the SU considered East and West Germany to be a "inner-German problem", i.e. unrelated to their own policies, East Germany had not much power to back up its souverenity. Along with other reasons, this was the main reason why it became more attractive for East Germans to become a citizen of West Germany, and it was after that the masses started to flood. Thats a rational choice, nobody wants to be a citizen of a failing state.
_____________________________
Фламенко
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Date Aug. 15 2011 8:08:58
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: 13 August: An Infamous Anniversary (in reply to XXX)
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quote:
The moment the SU considered East and West Germany to be a "inner-German problem", i.e. unrelated to their own policies, East Germany had not much power to back up its souverenity. Along with other reasons, this was the main reason why it became more attractive for East Germans to become a citizen of West Germany, and it was after that the masses started to flood.
That is simply wrong, Deniz. East Germans were flooding into West Berlin long before that. Between 1950 and 1961, when the wall was built, nearly 2 million East Germans had defected to the West through Berlin. That is the reason the wall was built--to stem the flow of East Germans to West Berlin. Khruschev was afraid that if the flow continued, it could lead to the collapse of East Germany, and that would have serious repercussions for the rest of the Soviet Empire--Czechoslovakia, Poland, Hungary, etc. That is the reason the Soviets had Walter Ulbricht build the wall--to prevent the further mass defection of East Germans to the West and to preserve the Soviet Empire in Eastern Europe.
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Aug. 15 2011 18:55:20
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: 13 August: An Infamous Anniversary (in reply to Sean)
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quote:
Maybe one day when I'm rich and powerful I'll appreciate politics, today I'm just another victim.
Aug 13th rocks though it's my birthday
Sean,
Belatedly, let me wish you a very Happy Birthday! I hope you did something special on your birthday. and when you are rich and powerful, instead of appreciating politics, I hope you buy a mint condition Manuel Reyes or Marcelo Barbero flamenca blanca.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Aug. 21 2011 19:20:38
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: 13 August: An Infamous Anniversary (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
Are you going to listen to the show Bill or is it too loopy doopy BBC liberal/ PC?
On the contrary, Stephen, I did watch the show and thought it neither liberal/PC nor conservative. It was right on the money. The show brought out just how desperate East Germans were to defect to the West. Before the wall, thousands per week crossed over. It also accurately portrayed the inaction of the Western Powers: The U.S., Britain, and the French. Rightly so, in my opinion. The status quo of the wall, provocation that it was, was better than risking a major confrontation that could have led to war with the Soviets.
The same thing happened with the Hungarian Revolution of 1956. Prior to that time, there had been a lot of talk about "rollback" of the iron curtain. But when the Soviets invaded Hungary, a country they already occupied and considered in their sphere of influence. we did nothing but verbally protest. Again, I think it was the correct course of action. The whole symmetry of the Cold War had to be maintained until the Soviet Union could no longer sustain it. Going to war was not an option, in my opinion. It was all tied up in the policy of "containment," that is, we would apply political and military pressure, when necessary, to thwart any Soviet adventure outside their satellites, but we would not attempt to overtly challenge them in areas under their control.
That said, it still does not detract from the fact that the East German Government and the Soviets built the Wall to prevent East Germans from Leaving. It may have been morally reprehensible, but in the world of "realpolitik," it was something the West reluctantly accepted in order to avoid a much worse confrontation that easlily could have led to war.
Again, thanks. I thought the show was dead on accurate.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Aug. 22 2011 1:13:53
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: 13 August: An Infamous Anniversary (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
If not for Kelly Johnson's Skunk Works and the Mikoyan shop in Russia and the super baddass airplane designs they created, that whole epoch would have been a giant super power snooze fest.
Indeed the Skunk Works and Mikoyan's shop produced some interesting stuff. But the race to the moon was actually part of the Cold War, and I thought it was pretty exciting. I had a close up look at it since my brother was the head of the Flight Medicine Branch at the Manned Space Flight Center in Houston, at age 33. He had responsibility not only for the astronauts' health and fitness to fly, medical care of the astronauts' families, but also requirements for the life support systems, medical telemetry and the Lunar Receiving Laboratory, the best biological confinement facility of the time. He started as a flight surgeon on Gemini, and headed the Flight Medicine Branch throughout the Apollo moon landing program.
I also found my own participation in design and development of intercontinental ballistic missiles to be pretty interesting. I worked on Minuteman II and III, Peacekeeper, Trident I and II, the British upgrade of Polararis, the British Trident I and II, and French ICBMs. All the ICBMs on our side during my working days.
I was on the Anti-Ballistic Missile Intelligence Review Panel, overseeing collection and analysis of intelligence data on the Soviet missile defenses. They spent a lot more on missile defense than we did, and produced some interesting radar systems. I was a leader on projects to develop technology to defeat the Soviet radars, a pretty interesting job.
During the Cuban Missile Crisis the Fourth Infantry Division and the 82nd and 101st Airborne Divisions formed the Strategic Army Command, a highly trained, well-equipped, rapidly deployable force. The Cuban Missile Crisis was as close as the world ever came to all-out nuclear war. I was in the 4th. It was pretty exciting being deployed as part of the U.S. response to the Soviet emplacement of nuclear missiles in Cuba....to say the least.
The Vietnam War was part of the Cold War. Last month I visited one of my best high school buddies, a retired 2-star admiral. He said he thought the worst times the country had been through during our adult lives was the Vietnam War.
We were about ten years older than most of the anti-war protesters, but we both came to believe the Vietnam War was the wrong war at the wrong place at the wrong time. He couldn't participate in the protests, but for me getting tear gassed and beaten by the cops was pretty exciting.
RNJ
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Date Aug. 24 2011 16:50:48
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