RE: Singers,dancers and guitarrists point of view about flamenco.

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Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Singers,dancers and guitarrists ... (in reply to Doitsujin)

Grisha,
if you are interested in following up, there are a number of interviews posted on flamenco-world.com that may address your question. The one by Gerardo Nunez was especially telling, as he more or less said that the guitarists are the real force behind flamenco yet are accorded little respect. Maybe Paco is thought of as a god by non-guitarists over there, but he must certainly be the exception. I wonder if it is a situation where everyone says they love him because everyone says they love him, or if they really have any feeling for his music.

Ron, as for exciting, I know you don't care for it that much, but a well timed picado run is as good an exclamation point I know of. Similiar to when the cantaor holds the note extra-long--automatic oles no matter how good it sounds.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 19 2005 14:13:43

Guest

RE: Singers,dancers and guitarrists ... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

Ron, as for exciting, I know you don't care for it that much, but a well timed picado run is as good an exclamation point I know of. Similiar to when the cantaor holds the note extra-long--automatic oles no matter how good it sounds.

Depends if the people listening know or not.

Sean

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 19 2005 14:16:17

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Singers,dancers and guitarrists ... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

but a well timed picado run is as good an exclamation point I know of

I would vote for the rasgeado myself.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 19 2005 14:35:13

Grisha

Posts: 1263
Joined: Mar. 17 2005

RE: Singers,dancers and guitarrists ... (in reply to Ron.M)

Thank you, Ron. I think flamenco as an "experience" and advanced solo guitar playing and composition are two different things, and each goes its own way and follows its own rules. Each finds its own audience. I love flamenco singing and dancing, and think that they should be preserved the way they are: here purity really counts. But solo high-level flamenco guitar playing and composition is a totally independent art, way more advanced and technically demanding than what's needed for accompanying dance and song. I don't mean any disrespect to professional accompanists; their art is really advanced, just in a different way: it's the knowledge and the purity of feeling that counts there. I think Paco's "Tio Sabas" is as different from a general Taranta por Cante, as Bach's Chaconne from strummed Ciacconas of 16th Century.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 19 2005 16:26:37

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Singers,dancers and guitarrists ... (in reply to Grisha)

Hola Grisha,
I am more aware now of how you handle Flamenco within your repertoire.
I tend to think of you as being "post John Williams" in that respect.
I must admit though, I've never thought of the Flamenco "classics" as being actual "classics", but just as a moment in time that was preserved forever on a recording medium.

I don't think I'll see it in my lifetime, but I believe that at one time it was impossible to play Delta Blues, without living the life of oppression, racism, drink and whorehouses.
Even to this day, it's possible to emulate the technique but not the style.
(Probably due to the lack of convenient whorehouses

)
Then Jazz came along, then more amazingly Charlie Parker, and a more "cerebral" style of expression within the medium, and the word started to spread and was taken up Internationally.

Then came Rock& Roll and if you've ever seen the movie "That'll be the Day", you may remember when the young English man goes into a British club with an electric guitar and the guy asks him, "What do you play?"
He says,"Rock & Roll"
And the guy says "Don't be stupid...you've got to be American to play that stuff!"

I lived during that time, when my big brother had pictures of Elvis, The Everly Brothers, Gene Vincent, Eddie Cochrane etc on the wall, so I know the sentiment of that era.

British acts like Billy Fury, Marty Wilde, Cliff etc were considered "phonies" or "lookalikes".

Until the Beatles came about and changed the world.

I really do believe that "Solo" Flamenco guitar is on a hinge point, with so many good players on the world scene, that it will eventually become an independent art form, and the artists recognised for what they do rather than where they were born.

(Except the "rough" stuff which will always go on in Jerez!

)

Just some thoughts Grisha!

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 19 2005 20:56:45

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Singers,dancers and guitarrists ... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

although im very new to the flamenco, my point may be quite interesting: it seems that the conlfincts between these groups of, id call them musicians, may be due to the fact, that each one demands to be the most important part of this orchestra.
if you think of rock music, dou you think a band could work if there were such deep lacks of trust ?
the reason why the dancer, singer is most of the time in front of the band ist the same for rock and flamenco music: the audience likes it that way.
besides, i dont know many people who really find virtuous guitar music enjoyable... so pure, without any voice, cause the public got used to that. its not a matter of quality; its kind of pop culture...
same goes for the minority, the guitar fraction; if i go to see a guitar player i would also be upset if suddenly a dancer comes accros the stage and obstructs my view on the player!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 7 2005 9:49:08

bailoro2000

Posts: 93
Joined: Jul. 7 2003

RE: Singers,dancers and guitarrists ... (in reply to Doitsujin)

Good topic. Couple of points of view from a definite "non-musician" and clearly stated IMO:

Dance is my thing. What makes dance? Why music of course. Without music, and not just music, but "good" music, the body wouldn't react and move to it. So in a way, all those of us who dance are musical appreciators. We certainly do appreciate the skills of musicians, particularly those of us who have no talent to make it ourselves.

I can dance, as most dancers can, to almost anything with a "westernised" structure, ie, set rhythmn music, but, if I hadn't seen flamenco dancers I might not even know flamenco music was danced to. This is because flamenco's dischordant make up doesn't immediately give the system a rhythmic clue. That's why flamenco's compass
needs learning and understanding. Only then does it become music. Musicians know this and learn the bones then refine it with practise. Dancers need to identify areas to
fit their art into and learn a lot of step patterns unique to each palo. Improvisation only comes in either after a lot of practise and understanding. There is also the point that tone and colour are more important in flamenco than musical correctness; one of the main reasons in my opinion as to what "sounding" flamenco is all about.

Flamenco is about cante. Guitar and dance embellish it but, it is those of us who weren't born into it that make seperate arts of both. True flamenco doesn't seperate the components and it only the possibilities of careers outside flamenco that probably encourage the flamencos to go solo in the first place. Without cante there is no flamenco. It is entirely wrong to think that being unable to sit through two hours of cante or guitar from one artists is a sign of unappreciativeness. Variety is needed to
watch and hear flamenco all day long. Like too much food, or even sex

there comes a point when to continue is pointless. Pleasure comes in small doses; excess makes anything somewhat boring. In this flamenco is no different than anything else.

In our own way we are all musicians of sorts. Cante is the emotion of flamenco, dance the visual aspect and guitar the music. Take one away from the other and you don't have the complete art. Take away cante and you don't have an art at all in the flamenco sense. In the true sense, guitar and dance are applause for the singer.

But hey, these are just my views. Without musicians it would be a poor world

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 7 2005 12:45:20

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Singers,dancers and guitarrists ... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

great topic

I got here so late almost everything good i could have said someone else has said it allready probably better than what i would have.

But i find myself agreeing with everyone, i think it just depends on how far or how close to the subject u are.

For example is really easy to say that dancers dont apreciate guitarists if you just played for a class and noticed that dancers were talking trough your intro. (but for every 2 dancers not listening there's 2 listening)

From what i see around me is the guitarists and the dancers that work the most at they'r art.
The singers I know just show up for the show's 1 or 2 rehersals if u lucky take the money and leave :-)
And good for them If i could just show up do a show good take the money and leave I probably would.

All I know is that here in Australia you couldnt do a show without all 3 elements in it.
Pple outside flamenco would not come to see a solo guitar show or a cante show but they are slowly learning, 5 years ago they also wouldnt come to see a show that didnt have a sombrero, a fan and castanets in it because that was flamenco :-)

And I totaly agree with the fact that the pple that mostly apreciate a solo guitar cd are other guitarists, but i think it kind of explains why flamenco guitar is moving in the direction that it is, more jazzy , more melodyc, not so in your face.
Because the old school flamenco guitar cds demanded attention after you attention span went it just got anoyying like you couldnt just leave the cd runing in the background you had to turn it off or trun the volume down so low that is not even any point to keep playing it.
Thats the reason new flamenco guitar cds sound like they do because they have learned how to demand your attention if you wanna listen for it, or it can just as easy slip in the background when you dont feel like having to listen to everysingle note.

in my opinionation ..

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 8 2005 19:51:48

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Singers,dancers and guitarrists ... (in reply to bailoro2000)

Florian,
I agree with a lot of what you say.
My wife doesn't like Flamenco, but I showed her the DVD clip of Vincente's "Three words to say...".... and she was in seventh heaven!
If I'd showed her anything else on the album, she would have got bored.
That's the whole spectrum of Flamenco....are you playing to an entertainment audience, or an aficionado audience?
My guess is that in Jerez they don't have that distinction...

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 8 2005 20:37:50

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Singers,dancers and guitarrists ... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

true ron..

i bet that those that play to the aficionados have alot less money in theyr pocket

and similar think to a lesser extent is starting to happen to the Cante cds our days they stay somewhere between pop/jazz/flamenco eg. Montse Cortes (who I love ) new cd.

Sometimes I wonder who would enjoy something ,more

An flamenco expert whos heard every guitarist and knows where each falseta comes from and knows where you playd a different note there, and is waiting to see if you can do the fast picado passage coming up next.

or...

a someone that has just come to hear a guitar song, has no idea where the falsetas come from is just hearing the music and deciding if he likes it or not.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 8 2005 20:53:04

bailoro2000

Posts: 93
Joined: Jul. 7 2003

RE: Singers,dancers and guitarrists ... (in reply to Ron.M)

Ron.

You've probably seen the same guitarists as I have in concert, Paco Pena, Juan Martin etc. (I was lucky enough to see a young Emilio Maya quite a few times in Spain in the later part of the eighties) You'll probably also have noticed that they tend to go for shows these days with singers and dancers as opposed to going solo. Nothing to do with their own art, more for public taste; the old visual aspect and spectacle at work. Also maybe to do with the attention span thing.

Do you musicians tend to analyse an artist's playing whilst you listen to it, I mean as opposed to just listening to the whole thing as a piece of music? As a non-musician I don't listen out for falsetas, rasgeados etc, although I know what they are. To me it's a work, a palo just performed as flamenco and I don't have to really learn anything on the technical side of it, just enjoy it. Guess it's an occupational hazard for a guitarist to have to try seeing and hearing the technicalities?

As for Florian's comment about some dancers listening and some not, in the classes and
workshops I've attended most of the dancers are in awe of the guitarist seeing him on the same level as the dance teacher. I have to admit I've also seen a couple of real
exhibitions of bad manners from students who think six months of dance class make then Carmen Amaya

but they were isolated. These people would probably talk if PDL
was playing. In general though, the guitarist gets the respect he deserves.

Jim.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 8 2005 21:19:15

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Singers,dancers and guitarrists ... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

Do you musicians tend to analyse an artist's playing whilst you listen to it, I mean as opposed to just listening to the whole thing as a piece of music? As a non-musician I don't listen out for falsetas, rasgeados etc, although I know what they are. To me it's a work, a palo just performed as flamenco and I don't have to really learn anything on the technical side of it, just enjoy it. Guess it's an occupational hazard for a guitarist to have to try seeing and hearing the technicalities?

i try not to and just enjoy the music but sometimes you cant help it, you know a piece well and someone is doing the full piece u cant help but listen for the hard parts u know are coming up wandering if hes gonna do it well. (wich it probably wrong) I try to and I wish that I could just hear the music.
But one thing that i am proud of is how open minded i am, and open to hearing different interpretations.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 8 2005 22:11:43

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Singers,dancers and guitarrists ... (in reply to Florian)

Great post, Jim!
Everything you say is so true....
I reckon on the "greats" of Flamenco guitar...even if they hadn't got to where they are now, would still believe in what they are doing.
Sure, the "money things" are stupid to give up, especially when it's handed to you..like Paco and Ramon doing their 60's album of South American tunes or even now, Rafael doing the Credit Card advert with Allen Whicker.
Every Musician I've ever met has been obsessed by making money!

But ask them to get a regular job....

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 8 2005 22:30:10

Thomas Whiteley

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Singers,dancers and guitarrists ... (in reply to bailoro2000)

quote:

Do you musicians tend to analyse an artist's playing whilst you listen to it, I mean as opposed to just listening to the whole thing as a piece of music?

Jim;

When I was a teenager my brother and I would pick apart any and all mistakes a musician made. We were awful! Then I realized that a performer is human and the purpose of attending a show or listening to someone play an instrument is to enjoy yourself.

When I watch a flamenco group perform I just enjoy what is going on and do not pay attention to the guitarist. If he keeps compas then nothing matters as far as he is concerned. I do dislike hearing a guitarist get in the way of other performers though.

Over amplified guitar is something I do not like at all! Things should blend and act as one. To have a singer, dancer or guitarist trying to gain the spotlight is not a good experience.

_____________________________

Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2005 3:00:57

bailoro2000

Posts: 93
Joined: Jul. 7 2003

RE: Singers,dancers and guitarrists ... (in reply to Thomas Whiteley)

Good sentiments Tom, although I expected most of you guitarists to have the opposite view. I can't play a comb and paper, but when I hear a guitarists hammer out a good riff or throw in some really appetising passage, which occurs all over the place in guitar music, and not just flamenco, my first thought is always " Gee, that was great, wish I could play it". Would have thought guitarists would think, "Gee, that was great I'll go home and learn it!"

I enjoy many types of music and love to just sit back and listen to the whole thing, from flamenco to orchestral, but a guitar always hits a spot that few other instruments do. Mind you, there are exceptions; I'm not really a saxaphone man but just loved Gerry Rafferty's " Baker Street" and the church organ in Bach's Tocata and fugue can make the hairs ****le. I have a bit of an odd taste in flamenco guitar sometimes as I really rate Manuel Molina (of Lole and Manuel).

Jim.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2005 23:09:22

Thomas Whiteley

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Singers,dancers and guitarrists ... (in reply to bailoro2000)

Jim;

Often when I listen to another guitarist play flamenco I am thinking about variations of what has been played. Sometimes several come to mind at almost the same time. I like to drive myself crazy!

After playing flamenco guitar for over forty years I still hear variations of what I play as I am playing. It is nice to work out different ways to play my music.

_____________________________

Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 10 2005 2:16:59

Carlos Bedoya

Posts: 20
Joined: Feb. 15 2005
From: San Juan, Puerto Rico

RE: Singers,dancers and guitarrists ... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

Now I don't consider a dancer a musician either, unless she plays a musical instrument. Dancers dance, musicians play music. Drums or taconeo or the tops of sherry barrels, don't count. This may be considered a bias, and of course it is only my personal definition of music, but I believe a musician must understand melody and harmony to call himself that, not just rhythm. The best drummer in the world is not a musician for just playign drums--this is my opinion and of course doesn't represent a large number of people. A percussionist is a percussionist and is a valuable and essential part of a musical group, but I consider it rather flip to think of them in the same way as a guitar or pianist, who has a vast knowledge of harmony that a drummer will never need to know.

Here in Puerto Rico I've worked with high level percussionists since I was very young. since sometimes I'm musical director, I've taken it upon myself to learn how to play some of these instruments to deepen my understanding of the music and improve my communication with these musicians. I'ts not just about rhythm. I'ts about tone, melody... composition. It's very hard to do right. I'ts a more than a little flip to write these artists off as less than musicans.

Also practicing is of course a good thing but some people are naturally gifted and do not have to practice as much because the real world is not fair. You and I may have to practice to the bone to aquire the technique and still not achieve the artistry. In the end the vastness of our knowledge is not as important as the choices we make at the moment of performance.

I know classical musicians that say that if you don't read music your not a musician. Is this what you mean? I hope not because that would certainly exclude a lot of flamenco guitarrists including Sabicas.

I once again am trying to meet a deadline so I can't continue, but I could not disagree with you more. Percussionsts and flamenco dancers that produce sound are musicians. We have an equivalent to Paco de Lucia here and his name is Giovanni Hidalgo. He plays congas and we all "get it". Sorry to hear you don't.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 10 2005 23:40:54

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Singers,dancers and guitarrists ... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Carlos,
Thank you for your thoughts. I have a video of Hidalgo's. I played in a group with a Cuban percussionist and he gave me a copy---very impressive! Indeed, watching the way he uses the conga gave me great respect for that instrument. I am glad you have respect for this gentleman and I am sure he is worth it. Perhaps because I have been studying classical music, my definition of music is more closely tied to harmony than rhythm.

It's certainly fair to say that I am not qualified to judge a percussionist. On the other hand, it's hard for me to fathom a comparison of any percussionist to the work a composer does--for example, have you studied Bach? I don't see much common ground there. Western Classical music is probably 80% harmony/melody, 20% rhythm. Maybe it's fair to say that in many forms of Caribbean music, the proportions are inverted? If this is somewhere close to the mark, perhaps that's the root of our contention.

As far as practicing, I have heard of some people who didn't have to practice, but I have never met one. The greats I have studied, such as Paco, Pavarotti, Bach, all claimed to have practiced an extraordinary amount.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 11 2005 4:21:26

Ryan002

Posts: 173
Joined: Oct. 18 2005
From: Singapore

RE: Singers,dancers and guitarrists ... (in reply to Doitsujin)

Having a schizophrenic musical persona, I am a Pop vocalist but I play Flamenco guitar (or try to) and I have noticed, from a dual perspective, something very odd! Let's compare Pop and Flamenco for a second and you will see what I mean...

Back in the 60's contemporary music was dominated by the instrumentalist. The lead guitarist was the coolest, the bassist the next coolest, then the drummer, keyboardist, rythm guitarist and the hapless one would sing. Today, look at American idol and the new wave of singer songwriters like Avril and Jewel. The singer garners the most attention!

Now Flamenco used to be all about the singer. In fact if I recall correctly Paco Pena once said that in his younger days everyone knew the cantor, not the guitarist. Only recently has Flamenco guitar seemed to suddenly take off and leap for the limelight, with many people not listening to the singer or, in some cases, getting shocked when they find out there *is* a singer and that's what he sounds like (Blame the Gypsy Kings.