Another crazy question... guitar sizes!

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avimuno

Posts: 598
Joined: Feb. 9 2007
From: Paris, France

Another crazy question... guitar sizes!

Hola amigos,

Having met a few guitarists who are in the same situation as I am, I cannot help but ask myself the following question... is it possible to build bigger guitars for bigger players?!

Human genetics is in movement and people now tend to be bigger than people from 2-3 generations ago.
I am tall (6'3), have long arm with big hands and very ling fingers. As a result, my posture whilst playing is not the same as a 5'6 guy. I have the tendency to lean downward in order to be closer to the guitar when I play, and because my hands are big, it is difficult for me to keep a proper right hand position (I'm right handed). This results in back problems and a very awkward right hand technique which makes certain techniques more difficult (especially going from one technique to another, which require more movement). I know that the former depends on actual technique and that with the patience to actually work at it, my technique will get better.
But the problem for my back and the general comfort on the guitar remains...

Look at Paco de Lucia for example (because everyone here has seen videos of Paco playing)... the guitar is proportional to the size of his body and fingers. This results into him having an excellent hand position and his back is always straight. You can see that he is comfortable playing his guitar.

On the other hand, I am so big (as are other guitarists I've met) that even using a foot rest or a lower chair that wouldn't require me to cross my legs whilst playing make it awkward for me to play. So much so that I find myself having to rest every 30 min sometimes because my back is in pain.

Even looking at the guitar in my hands and it looks small... funnily so! lol

My question is therefore a very simple one... is it possible to build a guitar that is proportionally bigger for bigger people?

I know that messing with the size of the plantilla and the depth of the body has a direct impact on the sound... but at the same time I cannot help but notice that there are different size of plantilla being used (the Granada school with smaller bodies, the Madrid school with the standard plantilla and Gerundino who built bigger guitars). And sine other luthiers have experimented with different plantilla sizes, wouldn't it be possible to eventually arrive at a bigger one that would obviously have it's own sound but that would sound good none-the-less.

The other issue is neck width and string spacing at the bridge... what is considered big today is 54mm for the neck width and 60mm for the string spacing at the bridge... isn't it possible to make it 56mm and 64 mm for example?!
This might of course have some incidence on playability since the strings have a certain diameter that allows for proportions to be respected in narrower necks, but taking into consideration that guys like me have bigger hands anyways, this could work, couldn't it?

I'm probably completely off on this thread but this has been bothering me for a while now and if a luthier is willing to experiment I might order a big guitar one day just to see the difference.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2011 9:49:10

rombsix

Posts: 7817
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Another crazy question... guitar... (in reply to avimuno)

You're not THAT much of a giant.

See how Oscar Herrero sits here - he's tall also.

Might be some useful information here - a bit of a lengthy thread though:

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=154608&mpage=1&p=&tmode=1&smode=1&key=640

Maybe you can get some information from this:

Cheers!

PS: Please don't kill/ban me for including a video of "the guitarist whose name we shall not mention."

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2011 9:58:22

avimuno

Posts: 598
Joined: Feb. 9 2007
From: Paris, France

RE: Another crazy question... guitar... (in reply to avimuno)

quote:

PS: Please don't kill/ban me for including a video of "the guitarist whose name we shall not mention."

You're taking big risks here!

I have seen big players feel comfortable... Tino is an example of that.
I'm about Tino's size but I'm bigger... he is tall and really lean. I'm tall and big... and my hands and fingers are visibly bigger than his.

For example, I cannot have the right hand position that Oscar Herrerro has in the video, my hands are too big. For you to get an idea, when my thumb is at a right angle from my palm/first finger, there's a distance of slightly more than 22 cm in between the tip of my thumb and the tip of my first finger... it's big!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2011 10:04:48

rombsix

Posts: 7817
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Another crazy question... guitar... (in reply to avimuno)

quote:

For example, I cannot have the right hand position that Oscar Herrerro has in the video, my hands are too big. For you to get an idea, when my thumb is at a right angle from my palm/first finger, there's a distance of slightly more than 22 cm in between the tip of my thumb and the tip of my first finger... it's big!

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Zo9T9DVWXDg/TX3cpCkvcqI/AAAAAAAACBA/jYbWgL_EPqw/s1600/WWE-Big-Show5.jpg

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2011 10:36:08

avimuno

Posts: 598
Joined: Feb. 9 2007
From: Paris, France

RE: Another crazy question... guitar... (in reply to avimuno)

Hahaha... That's about it!!! Except I'm slightly darker... well, much darker!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2011 10:37:46

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Another crazy question... guitar... (in reply to avimuno)

I was once told that when I was playing the guitar it looked like I was holding a peanut.

Try different positions. I found holding the guitar classical style with a foot rest worked best for me. Never could play with crossed legs.

_____________________________

John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2011 13:59:27

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Another crazy question... guitar... (in reply to avimuno)

Maybe try a guitar support that rests on the leg, they can bring the guitar up into a very comfortable position.
But that will not solve the problem of the hands/fingers feeling cramped. A 660-665 scale length would be a good idea, and generally when you build a longer scale you enlarge the body of the guitar somewhat to keep the bridge in the right place. Increasing the nut width/string spacing and string spacing at the bridge would also be a huge help.. I was actually talking to a guy that was interested in 58-60 mm nut width. All that is totally doable.. might look strange with a normal person playing it, and could definitely make it harder to resell, but for you it would look/feel more in proportion.

_____________________________

Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2011 14:44:51

Don Dionisio

Posts: 360
Joined: Feb. 16 2011
From: Durham, NC

RE: Another crazy question... guitar... (in reply to avimuno)

I am 6' 3'' and have used an "A-frame" for classical without a footstool.
Currently, for flamenco, I use a footstool on the right foot much like Oscar Herrero. As a tall person, we must be careful of our backs. I also study with a guy who is about 6' 7'' and he uses the same approach.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2011 15:53:58

estebanana

Posts: 9368
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Another crazy question... guitar... (in reply to avimuno)

I've found for bigger people that a little extra body depth helps them feel like the guitar is not a "peanut". And a slightly larger plantilla helps.

I had a guy try my Santos size plantilla guitar and he felt like something was not a good fit. His right hand was too far up towards the finger board. I gave him my bigger plantilla which I derived from a Friedrich and then tweaked. He liked it much better, it fit him and when he put his arm over the upper bout he had a more natural right hand position.

I could be mistaken, but my observation of guitarists with slightly different sized guitar has seem to indicate a subtle shift in size can make a difference in how they hold the guitar. My Santos plantilla is 14-3/8" (364 mm)wide in the lower bout and usually a blanca gets built to about 3-3/4" (95mm) deep at the tail. The bigger plantilla is 14-3/4" and a full 4" (102mm) to 4-1/4" deep at the tail depending on how I want the guitar to sound.

Just that amount of difference in the plantilla size has made a difference for some players who are large. On the other end, I also have made classical guitars more like the Santos dimensions to keep from stressing folk who are around 5'5" to 5'10' in stature.

I also tend to feel like scale length is a less of factor than body size. I've seen those with smallish hands playing large scales and those with large hands playing shorter scales. I think much of the issue with scale is in the players head because it's been my experience both as a player and observer that you can adapt to different scales if you try. That's not to say certain players don't have limits or preferences in hand size, strength and flexibility. All that should be carefully considered. (And of course if you are playing flamenco, and you put the cejilla on the first fret you have diminished scale length considerably. )

I'm saying that body size plays a bigger role in holding comfort and posture in my opinion. One person might feel better with a larger body and smaller scale and another person might like a 26 -1/4" scale on a small guitar.

quote:

Avimuno writes: " The other issue is neck width and string spacing at the bridge... what is considered big today is 54mm for the neck width and 60mm for the string spacing at the bridge... isn't it possible to make it 56mm and 64 mm for example?! "

That 54 at the nut is pretty wide. Many players have found that they at first thought they liked the wider nut and then gone back to 52 mm. Unless you have a really big hand 54 to 55 should make it possible to play in reasonable comfort. The bridge end is a problem, when you widen the strings at the saddle you also have to widen the neck to make sure the strings are not too close to the edges of the finger board. It's possible to work this out with your guitar maker, but probably staying conservative would serve you better. The reason is because a small amount of increased distance between strings at the saddle seems to have an exponential effect on how it feels. A shift of a mm and half spread out over the whole distance between strings could feel significantly different. It might be worth getting an extra saddle to experiment with on your current guitar and having the builder file slots in the saddle to seat the strings at different distances to see how it affects your right hand. This could cause the strings to ride too close to the edges of the fingerboard, but it's only to test right hand string distances. Take notes.

And remember if you have something built that deviates too far from the normal sizes it will be difficult to sell it later if you want to change.

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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2011 19:04:38

avimuno

Posts: 598
Joined: Feb. 9 2007
From: Paris, France

RE: Another crazy question... guitar... (in reply to avimuno)

quote:

I could be mistaken, but my observation of guitarists with slightly different sized guitar has seem to indicate a subtle shift in size can make a difference in how they hold the guitar. My Santos plantilla is 14-3/8" (364 mm)wide in the lower bout and usually a blanca gets built to about 3-3/4" (95mm) deep at the tail. The bigger plantilla is 14-3/4" and a full 4" (102mm) to 4-1/4" deep at the tail depending on how I want the guitar to sound.

In my experience, small changes also make a world of difference.... for example, I used to have an Antonio Raya Pardo, which was a very nice guitar, however it was a smaller Torres-style body and it definitely felt very very cramp on there for me.

Thanks for the advice everyone, I will definitely experiment with different postures... right now I tend to use a chair that is low enough so that I do not have the cross my legs or use a footrest, which does take some stress off my back... but the tendency to lean onto the guitar is still here and I am starting to feel it in my lower back.

Also, thank you for taking the time to explain everything to me in detail Stephen... most builders I have addressed the issue to have advised not to go for bigger than usual dimension because of the resale possibilities... which is definitely a real issue.
As I did mention however, I would like to have a guitar with bigger dimensions built for me just to see if it makes a big difference for me... something affordable to experiment with, I'll look into it when I manage to save up some money.

Gracias!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 28 2011 5:28:28