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RE: Difference between classical and... (in reply to Pali)
Well, I guess it's just to separate sound and playability or something like that. Because I don't know how well I'd do on that test if I was just listening, but I think I might do alright (or at least, better) if I played the instrument. But then again, I don't know.
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RE: Difference between classical and... (in reply to Piwin)
If I invited 3 of my friends, all top flamenco professionals, to play behind a curtain and you did not know which guitar they are going to play, (but all of them begin by playing my guitar), could you tell that it was the same guitar? Would you be influenced if I had told you that two of them habitually play Condes and the other plays Bernal? If they repeated, playing their own guitars, could you identify them?
RE: Difference between classical and... (in reply to Escribano)
quote:
Well, you asked but why, if you already have the answer?
Nooo, make no mistake about it, my answer is subjective, personal and as respectable as yours or that of any other colleague. It is always good to listen to each other's version, you always learn something. The subject seems very interesting to me and is debated everywhere.
RE: Difference between classical and... (in reply to Morante)
quote:
Si invito a 3 de mis amigos, todos los mejores profesionales del flamenco, a tocar detrás de un telón y no supieras qué guitarra van a tocar (pero todos empiezan por tocar mi guitarra), ¿podrías decir que era la misma guitarra? ¿Te influiría si te dijera que dos de ellos interpretan habitualmente a Condes y el otro a Bernal? Si repitieran, tocando sus propias guitarras, ¿podrías identificarlos?
Ahahahahahahah......There is a very similar experiment done with the best violins imitating their construction system with treated woods and stradivarius was not 1st. It really is an exciting topic.
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Difference between classical and... (in reply to Pali)
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Pali
It is a very interesting topic but a bit, let's say "misleading".
Let's see, for example, if I play three different guitars without you seeing them, would you be able to tell them apart? Could you tell me which one is for flamenco and which one is for classical?
I have seen Pepe Romero play classical with a white guitar made of cypresses with a German spruce top and play flamenco with a rosewood guitar and no one could tell which was one or the other ..... if you want to do the test ...
I have done this test on myself. No I absolutely could not tell the difference and they were MY guitars and I had just played each one moments before (had the recording engineer play them back at random). The sound is mainly in the fingers of the player.
However, as a TEACHER, the situation is very black and white. When a student arrives for first classes with a CLASSICAL guitar, there is only so much we can do. The quick save is to purchase a GOLPEADOR....depending on the neck angle and set up at the bridge this simple thing has potential to convert a classical guitar into a functional flamenco one. But upon first learned golpes and compas patterns, if the bridge is too high (10mm or more) there will be physical problems that guitars set up with low bridge (thanks to neck angle) won’t have. I always recommend students to invest in a PROPER flamenco guitar for lots of physical reasons. Of course there are flamenco designed guitars with bad set ups, but generally speaking, it is the SETUP that makes the distinction, and I am not talking about lowering the bone saddle only.
There are not many cypress classical guitars with peg heads unless they are pre Segovia old Torres era instruments. I consider Manuel Ramirez the originator of the proper “flamenco” guitar design as distinct from a classical guitar. So, looks, and set up are the main factors.
The bridge height on your rosetteless classical guitar pictured above is too high. Get ready for this fun like my Sanchis (9-10mm) gave me:
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RE: Difference between classical and... (in reply to Morante)
quote:
If I invited 3 of my friends, all top flamenco professionals, to play behind a curtain and you did not know which guitar they are going to play, (but all of them begin by playing my guitar), could you tell that it was the same guitar? Would you be influenced if I had told you that two of them habitually play Condes and the other plays Bernal? If they repeated, playing their own guitars, could you identify them?
No, I couldn't.* That's why I wondered whether the way to gauge the difference between a classical and a flamenco was more in the "playability" than in the sound. I don't know whether "playability" is the right word, but I just mean how the instrument feels to the player. But if Ricardo did that test of playing the instruments himself and he couldn't tell the difference between a classical and a flamenco, then I'm sure I wouldn't either.
So what's the difference then? Is it just that a classical set-up like a flamenco doesn't hold up well over time or something? I get that the difference is relatively marginal, since at some point the two were presumably the same thing. But at some point they must've diverged and become more distinctive, no? Or is this all just a clever ploy by the luthiers here to make us pay more money?
*actually, take that back. I'm pretty sure I could see the bright orange glow of a Conde even through a thick curtain.
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
RE: Difference between classical and... (in reply to Ricardo)
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
RE: Difference between classical and... (in reply to Pali)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Pali
Some more...
Nice looking axe! She is your favorite but why?
I’ve found guitar players of various types can make the worst guitar sound good, well better then say if I was playing the best guitar. I tend not to judge. I do understand about proper set up for Flamenco as well as the sonic properties of a Blanca, I Believe the whole Negra thing is really just marketing.
In fact I just coined a new Flamenco guitar, the “Mallato” on my Instagram the other day. Spruce top and Birch back and ribs. Brighter like a Negra but still grawls like a Blanca.
HR
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_____________________________
I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy, doesn't have to be fast, should have some meat on the bones, can be raw or well done, as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.
RE: Difference between classical and... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Pali
It is a very interesting topic but a bit, let's say "misleading".
Let's see, for example, if I play three different guitars without you seeing them, would you be able to tell them apart? Could you tell me which one is for flamenco and which one is for classical?
I have seen Pepe Romero play classical with a white guitar made of cypresses with a German spruce top and play flamenco with a rosewood guitar and no one could tell which was one or the other ..... if you want to do the test ...
I have done this test on myself. No I absolutely could not tell the difference and they were MY guitars and I had just played each one moments before (had the recording engineer play them back at random). The sound is mainly in the fingers of the player.
However, as a TEACHER, the situation is very black and white. When a student arrives for first classes with a CLASSICAL guitar, there is only so much we can do. The quick save is to purchase a GOLPEADOR....depending on the neck angle and set up at the bridge this simple thing has potential to convert a classical guitar into a functional flamenco one. But upon first learned golpes and compas patterns, if the bridge is too high (10mm or more) there will be physical problems that guitars set up with low bridge (thanks to neck angle) won’t have. I always recommend students to invest in a PROPER flamenco guitar for lots of physical reasons. Of course there are flamenco designed guitars with bad set ups, but generally speaking, it is the SETUP that makes the distinction, and I am not talking about lowering the bone saddle only.
There are not many cypress classical guitars with peg heads unless they are pre Segovia old Torres era instruments. I consider Manuel Ramirez the originator of the proper “flamenco” guitar design as distinct from a classical guitar. So, looks, and set up are the main factors.
The bridge height on your rosetteless classical guitar pictured above is too high. Get ready for this fun like my Sanchis (9-10mm) gave me:
Ricardo, I’ve seen you post this photo before but dont recall the backstory as to why you were not playing your Condi?
HR
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
_____________________________
I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy, doesn't have to be fast, should have some meat on the bones, can be raw or well done, as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.
Posts: 1607
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania
RE: Difference between classical and... (in reply to Morante)
Morante: that's sort of a "Flamenco Turing Test" I certainly couldn't tell the difference. If I knew the guitarists I might just be able to tell who was playing...
RE: Difference between classical and... (in reply to ernandez R)
quote:
¡Bonito hacha! Ella es tu favorita pero ¿por qué?
It is not a new guitar, it is restored, it is from 1995, I have had it on loan for a long time to teachers at the conservatory, they return it to me in perfect condition but I like to leave it as new and there I was giving it a touch of shellac and adjusting it a little. I have been able to sell it many times but it has something that I love, softness and comfort, sustain, power ... something that makes me not get rid of it. I have played again a short time ago, when I made a very important decision for me and my family and I did it with this one, made in 2008 in rosewood with a cedar top that I also love.
I think I have more pictures, now I will look for them....
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RE: Difference between classical and... (in reply to Pali)
The action at the bridge is too high. As a flamenco guitarist one should not play on that guitar for a long time. It would be ok to play just one night as the older guy did in your video above.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Pali
That is the guitar that is being played in the video, note that it is classic but modified, the pickguards are only provisionally placed ...
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RE: Difference between classical and... (in reply to Pali)
As for the difference, a better comparison would be a flamenco blanca versus a classical guitar because a negra will sound more or less like a classical guitar. To me there are only 2 major points.
(1) Weight of the guitar A blanca -> light -> brighter sound and shorter sustain or quicker in response A classical guitar -> the opposite
A few years ago I found a guitar on the street where I live. Don't know what wood. Maybe some exotic or unusual wood. But I do know is it's a solid top guitar. I hope back and sides are solid as well. Overall it's very light. That's why it has a shorter attack and sustain and sounds also bright. More like a blanca sound. My conclusion is independent of the wood selection guitar will sound flamenco if it's a light weight guitar.
But I'm not sure if a depth of the guitar body can determine the sound all things being equal.
(2) The string action at the bridge flamenco 7.5-8mm classical >9mm
The action at the bridge is so important because of golpe only. I'd avoid getting used to play on a guitar with a high action at the bridge. I believe it has a negative influence on your technique. For example it slows your alzapua + golpe or index + golpe playing. Another example is capirote golpe as shown in the picture Mr. Marlow uploaded. Also not comfortable for your right hand. A similar situation arises for the fretting hand (left hand) if the action at the 12th fret is too high.
If we don't have to play golpe in flamenco, the only thing that matters would be the action at the 12th fret which must be no higher than 3mm. The 2nd point will become irrelevant in that case.
RE: Difference between classical and... (in reply to Piwin)
Your opinion is very respectable. I feel differently, I never give my opinion of a guitar until I play it and register it well by the fingerboard and I never get carried away by aesthetics, photographs, rules, measurements ..... It is curious and instinctive, people who play never look at the instrument in a first contact, first they sit down then they tune it and play and play and play ...... then they look at the label, aesthetics, ornaments, mouth, head ... finally pass judgment ......
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Difference between classical and... (in reply to ernandez R)
quote:
but dont recall the backstory as to why you were not playing your Condi?
Sanchis sounds great, and plays great too. It’s just the bridge is too high. The extra thick ebony fingerboard suggests the option to plane it way down and lower the bridge a good 3 mm. Regardless, it is good enough instrument that it is what I travel with normally, meaning airports. I don’t mind if it gets checked in other words, I don’t feel that stress like when I travel with conde. My only regret was I would like to record my live album with Jesus montoya with conde, but honestly I didn’t know that gig was gonna get recorded. This photo was taken after a long Juerga in Sanlucar. I didn’t realize until I stopped playing.
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Difference between classical and... (in reply to Pali)
quote:
people who play never look at the instrument in a first contact
If this were true, every classical guitar that ever passed into a flamenco player’s hands would be ruined. Of course we look at the thing first. Classical players are only concerned about action over fingerboard by left hand feel. Flamenco players are concerned about both action over the fingerboard, AND the height of the bridge together (left and right hand feel). That is why we eyeball it right away before playing (vast majority of flamenco players anyway).
RE: Difference between classical and... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
If this were true, every classical guitar that ever passed into a flamenco player’s hands would be ruined. Of course we look at the thing first. Classical players are only concerned about action over fingerboard by left hand feel. Flamenco players are concerned about both action over the fingerboard, AND the height of the bridge together (left and right hand feel). That is why we eyeball it right away before playing (vast majority of flamenco players anyway).
No, man no, I do not mean that, it is a way of speaking here in Spain, I mean the aesthetic aspect; if the box is 95 or 90 or 93 cm, if the mitering of the filleting is wrong, if the break is done with zero angle or combined, if it is lacquered or hand-varnished ...... many construction details .. . The professional who is playing all day does not even need to pick it up to know how the guitar is.
Posts: 3487
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Difference between classical and... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana The main difference between a classical guitar and flamenco guitar is that classical guitars sound crappy when you do a rasgueado on them.
Based on personal experience and the few instruments I play regularly, I tend to agree.
The spruce/Indian '73 Romanillos #407 produces quite respectable flamenco picado and arpegio, but rasgueados are not up to the standard of 2 flamenca blancas and one flamenca negra. The Romanillos rasgueados are not as edgy and percussive.
I have some of the same impression from the LP Mario Escudero recorded on a Hauser, though he sounds very good on it.
Neither the '67 Ramirez cedar/cypress nor the '82 Arcangel Fernandez spruce/cypress is particularly happy doing Romantic era classical pieces. They require flamenco right hand to produce their best sound, and don't have the tonal variety of the Romanillos, the spruce/Brazilian Abel Garcia, the '91 spruce/Brazilian Contreras "doble tapa," and the cedar/Indian Blackshear "Rodriguez." All four of the latter produce excellent tone with a light tirando touch, but the blancas don't. The blancas take more force to get them going well, and when they do they produce a brilliant and edgy sound.
About the only one that plays both flamenco and classical with good results for me is the Blackshear spruce/Indian "Reyes" model, but its flamenco performance is better than its classical. It doesn't quite have the depth or variety of tone that the classicals do, though it is perfectly serviceable in classical repertoire. It is excellent when played with flamenco technique.
But I won't generalize from this small sample to guitars in general. There are a great variety of instruments on offer.
RE: Difference between classical and... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
Most of the time Bach lute suites and transcribed works sound better on flamenco guitars because the dry fast decay attack works with thick counterpoint intended on harpsichord. The violin partitas to an extent also. The cello suites still aren’t successful really on guitar.
Flamenco guitars are much more versatile than they get credit for.
RE: Difference between classical and... (in reply to Piwin)
I read all the posts in this thread, and thought deeply about this topic. I’m came to a bold conclusion. Next time someone asks this question, “ what’s the difference between a classical and flamenco guitar” the best response is: Who actually gives AF?
It’s answering a question with a question as in the Socratic method.
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