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RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas   You are logged in as Guest
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orsonw

Posts: 1473
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to orsonw

Here is a rough first rehearsal any comments on aire appreciated.

Both Juan and I are learning so it's not perfect... yet!

It's hard to get all the typical guitar phrases at capo 8, is the torque sounding enough like granainas?


http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=172796&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 19 2011 11:16:28
 
kudo

Posts: 2064
Joined: Sep. 3 2009
 

RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to orsonw

Looks like I have 5 pages to read

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2012 13:01:31
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 945
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to kudo

This thread is more confusing than enlighting.

So what is cante libre? What is free form in flamenco? What's difference between the two?
Can someone please explain it in relation to the following cases

- solo guitar
- cante without guitar
- cante with guitar
- baile with guitar

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 20 2021 20:40:43
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12948
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to devilhand

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

This thread is more confusing than enlighting.

So what is cante libre? What is free form in flamenco? What's difference between the two?
Can someone please explain it in relation to the following cases

- solo guitar
- cante without guitar
- cante with guitar
- baile with guitar


Solo guitar- guitar forms based on song forms that don’t allow palmas (as opposed to forms that might allow for them even if not used).
Cante without guitar- cantes that don’t allow for palmas nudillos, yunque, etc, no compas accompaniment (as opposed to forms that might allow it even though it is not used).
Cante with guitar- most fandango derivatives where the guitar plays “answers” to phrases of singing, rather than constant chordal strumming.
Baile with guitar- anything where you have the types of things above as music and the dancer is only doing movements with no rhythmic footwork.

For the record, what you asked has nothing to do with the topic of this thread which was about elastic compas vs what is considered a mistake or out of compas regarding Solea mainly.

The exchanges on page 3 regarding the Antonio Mairena performance between myself and Norman are the main jist of this subject. The deleted posts by romerito were in regards to playing of Antonio carrion that some might consider out of compas, but my thoughts on it were clearly stated and though this was 10 years ago, I don’t have anything to add.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 21 2021 17:10:21
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 945
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

But by "should" I mean square box. The vast majority of good solea singing it seems to me is NOT square box. So in a sense a "free" melody on top of solid compas of the guitar IS what happens a lot of times. That is how I see that they impose things like Fandango naturales over the solea compas as well. A free melody manipulated over the compas. Even I have heard some singers do cantiñas this way.


quote:

Well first let me explain what is "square box". Each line of verse of a typical solea, lets say alcala, is around 8 syllables. Lets make those syllables rhythm (they are anyway) and simplify the rhythm of the melody to quarter notes. There is usually a breath, so any solea can start on count 1, pause on 4 or 6, then end on 9, giving the chord chord change for count 10-12. Each musical phrase can work that way, each compas, each of the 3 or 4 line letras taking one compas of time. Now if the singer starts on the & of 1, does 8ths not quarters (&2&) and pauses after 3 syllables, we get count 3 open for the chord accent (as you described as a "clue"). This is one way a singer can manipulate and sing rhythmic, yet as you can see ahead it is still, or will be still "in the box" so to speak, with the next 5 syllables adding up to the chord change (10).

Is it what you mean above? As a listener I really enjoy this kind of rubato singing.

At 2:36.


At 4:08-6:00


In the first video above at 1:22, do you think this is the reason why flamenco singers sing rubato if done intentionally?

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 12 2021 16:24:50
 
Morante

 

Posts: 1758
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to devilhand

I once had the priviledge to hear El Chocolate, near the end of his life, in a small hall with the guitar of Antonio Carrión. Antonio sang por soleá. In every compás he exceeded el compás. Carrión followed him and did a remate on what you would consider beats 13 and 14.

So, which can´t sing or which can´t accompany?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 12 2021 16:41:01
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 945
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to Morante

quote:

So, which can´t sing or which can´t accompany?

El Chocolate was old and probably lost his rhythmic sense. So it was definitely not his fault.
Generally if the singer does it intentionally, then guitarist should cope with it somehow. If the singer can't sing in rhythm and has a poor sense of musical timing, one better not accompany him/her. He/she must be sent to the vocal coach first.

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 12 2021 17:04:55
 
Morante

 

Posts: 1758
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to devilhand

quote:

El Chocolate was old and probably lost his rhythmic sense.


Chocolate was and is a legend. He would have more compás dead than you will ever have.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 12 2021 17:12:10
 
Mark2

Posts: 1643
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to devilhand

Comedy gold. I also saw him sing. I didn't get a chance to tell him how old and out of compas he was....I was too wrapped up in his solea and Habichuela's playing.


quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

quote:

So, which can´t sing or which can´t accompany?

El Chocolate was old and probably lost his rhythmic sense. So it was definitely not his fault.
Generally if the singer does it intentionally, then guitarist should cope with it somehow. If the singer can't sing in rhythm and has a poor sense of musical timing, one better not accompany him/her. He/she must be sent to the vocal coach first.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 13 2021 16:32:59
 
Escribano

Posts: 6251
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to Mark2

quote:

I was too wrapped up in his solea and Habichuela's playing.


Pepe? He's one of the absolute best and I saw Chocolate in London many years ago. I remember his solea, of course.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 13 2021 21:18:04
 
Stu

Posts: 1919
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to Mark2

quote:

I didn't get a chance to tell him how old and out of compas he was.


  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 13 2021 21:51:32
 
Mark2

Posts: 1643
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to Escribano

Truth be told I can't remember if it was Pepe or Juan-they both were in the show I saw. It was a big production called "Flamenco Puro" that included many famous artists including Fernanda and Farruco-it played in New York for weeks and then came to SF. I went twice. This was in 1986 or so. I still have the program somewhere...

Here is a list of the cast I found on the net:

Dancers ... Manuela Carrasco
Dancers (El Blencasao) ... Jose Cortes
Dancers (El Farruco) ... Antonio Montoya
Dancers (La Faraona) ... Pilar Montoya
Dancers (La Farruquita) ... Rosario Montoya
Dancers (El Guito) ... Eduardo Serrano
Dancers ... Angelita Vargas
Singers ... Juan Jose Amador
Singers (El Boqueron) ... Diego Camacho
Singers ... Adela Chaqueta
Singers (El Extremeno) ... Enrique
Singers ... Fernanda de Utrera
Singers (El Moreno) ... Juan Fernandez
Singers (El Chocolate) ... Antonio Nunez
Guitarists ... Joaquin Amador
Guitarists ... Ramon Amador
Guitarists (El Bola) ... Agustin Carbonell
Guitarists (El Habichuela) ... Jose Carmona Carmona
Guitarists (El Habichuela) ... Juan Carmona Carmona
Guitarists ... Jose Miguel Carmona Nino

El Bola was just a kid.

I'm pretty sure Pepe played his solea solo so maybe it was Juan who played for Chocolate. I bought Pepe's solo album A. Mandeli with his famous solea so long ago it's on vinyl. I just in the last month finally learned some falsetas from it.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Escribano

quote:

I was too wrapped up in his solea and Habichuela's playing.


Pepe? He's one of the absolute best and I saw Chocolate in London many years ago. I remember his solea, of course.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 14 2021 17:19:22
 
Morante

 

Posts: 1758
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to Mark2

El Boquerón was a great cantaor, here with Manolo, a great tocaor, with his beautiful guitar de Montero.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 14 2021 17:29:09
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3122
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to Mark2

quote:

It was a big production called "Flamenco Puro" that included many famous artists including Fernanda and Farruco-it played in New York for weeks and then came to SF. I went twice. This was in 1986 or so. I still have the program somewhere...


NY Times says the show opened in New York on October 19, 1986, scheduled to run for five weeks. So maybe early 1987 in San Francisco?

In early 1987 I started living half the time in Austin and half the time in Palo Alto. Went to the show in San Francisco with my girlfriend, who was blown away. When Chocolate came out to sing pa'alante she asked, "My God, who is that?"

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 14 2021 23:45:01
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