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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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 RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to Guest)
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(Me): Generally speaking, the issue you're all trying to sort out is not musical, but geographical and generational.
Music is made by people in time and space. Therefore, the issues are MUSICALLY geographical and generational.
It’s only a musical issue in the sense that we’re not talking about French cooking or raising poodles. The issue of strict compás vs. rubato in soleá is indeed geographical. If you hear soleá played at a marchlike pace, even por medio, it doesn’t mean it’s soleá por bulería. It means you’re listening to soleá in Utrera, or interpreted by a singer from Utrera or someone who cultivates the Utrera style. Historically, soleá was much tighter. I remember very slow soleá with extreme rubato as becoming popular in the late sixties, possibly in response to dancers’ need to dramatize (?).
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I am not gonna bring up the issue of key here, but for me, por medio has SxB written all over it (Though it can be played por arriba).
There’s no precedent in flamenco for identifying any cante by what position it’s played in, or what speed it’s played at. Cejillas are becoming less common as young guitarists burn up the fretboard pulling out science-fiction chords.
Soleá is soleá, even when there’s no musical accompaniment, and regardless of the tempo. Ditto for SxB (BxS, bulerías al golpe, bulería pa’escuchar or whatever else you want to call it).
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(Me) Guitarists under a certain age...50-ish??...no longer beat the foot in the way shown, but rather in twos: 2-4-6-8-10-12 etc.
Don't agree. I took a class with Diego del Morao. He could move back and forth between 1-2--4-5, 12-3--6-9, 12-3-6-8-10, 12-3-7-8-10, 12-2-4, and the weirdest (but coolest) 12-+-3-+-6-+-9-+- 4against3).
Actually, that’s an exception that proves the rule. Diego is one of the few young guitarists with a strong background in traditional toque…his teacher was Carbonero, and he grew up in an atmosphere of respect for classic flamenco. It’s logical he taps sixes part of the time even when he’s playing twelves.
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With that in mind, I turn to Pedro Pena as quoted in Caballero's Cante FLamenco. He says that the guitarist must know when to push, when to hold back...etc. It is a quote I have mentioned on more than one occasion. He is really saying that you must know the cante very well and only then can you push.
That was Diego del Gastor’s theory too. There were singers who refused to sing with him. He’d have been right in fashion today however…when singers weren’t looking, guitarists commandeered the driver’s seat.
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A general "rule" that is often thrown around is that guitarists must wait until the singer resolves. While this is something that should not be made trivial, it is also not a rule.
It used to be a rule. Cante has never been the same since it was “revoked”. Not long before his death, the great Marote said he could no longer accompany cante because young singers were always waiting for him to play certain chords instead of leading. As a singer I can tell you “premature resolution” is hideously annoying. Just last night on Jerez radio we discussed a guitarist who was doing precisely that for el Negro del Puerto. There’s a new way of dealing with cante that works like that because singers are now willing to relinquish control in exchange for cool-sounding accompaniment.
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Guitarists internalize rhythms and harmonies in a very specific way. Beat 10 in solea, for example, is a cadential point. If the guitarist is very flexsible, like Paco, he can wait until the singer resolves around beat 1 or 3, at which point the guitarist can resolve at beat 4. The PROBLEM is, that most guitarists do not hear beat 4 as a resolution.
No experienced guitarist has any trouble displacing resolutions to 4 or anywhere else, and make it sound good.
_____________________________
Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jun. 8 2011 0:39:00
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to Guest)
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Excuse the disorganized response, I'm racing out the door for a flight to Canada. I know it's rude not to keep track of who writes what, but for the sake of speed I usually answer without getting involved in personal identities, it doesn't seem to serve any purpose.
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Not sure what your point is. My point comes from anthropology. People make music in space and time and if you take away space and time (which is physically impossible) then there is no music. Therefore these are musical issues. If Utr4era plays at, in your terminology, a different pace, then it is because a group of people (in time and space) have agreed to do so. This might be an aesthetic choice but it affects the music and is therefore musical.
The universe is made up of atoms and molecules, so this is actually a molecular question. On this type of forum however, and in keeping with the title of the thread, the relevant point is soleá is played with rubato in some areas, and at a steady pace in others, which is, by definition, a geographical distinction.
Nevertheless it is true that soleá is always done by human people who exist in the time-space continuum. The same tends to be true of siguiriya, fandangos, caracoles and quite possibly other cantes as well.
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BS. That is not buleria por Solea either. Rosas was traditionally in E (Por Arriba), Serrana is por Arriba and aside from the cante, can be recognized for this. If people begin to change things out of boredom or sheer desire for something novel, then yes, any key will do. Your statement, however is misleading
It's not clear what is "not bulería por soleá either". A cante is a cante, it is not a toque or a baile. Even if you play the wrong accompaniment, the cante does not lose its identity. Again, you're relying on the guitar position, E (not "por arriba" which in Spain is also called Mi-Fa or Fa-Mi and is only compatible with modal cante). Rosas is a cante. If sung by a man, it tends to fall into E position due to the physical nature of the guitar's fret-board. When sung by a woman however, it nudges closer to A position (in response to the guitarist's need not to play on the 7th fret or more). In fact, most of the positions you might think of as "traditional" are the result of the specific range of a given cante, and the register of a masculine voice: women didn't used to be professional singers, and mostly sang without accompaniment.
You're confusing key and position. Keys don't change, and are identified by the scale of the cante. Position is a changeable guitar reference with little real importance. I remember someone mentioned alegrías being identified as such because of its major key. The soleá de Carapiera is in major key...any position...and is always a soleá. There are cantiñas with excursions into the minor key. To study cante, listen to cante.
Like soleá por bulería, serrana is a cante, and is only identified by itself, regardless of whether it is being accompanied musically, or is being accompanied badly, or is being played in a position other than E or without any sort of accompaniment. There is no precedent for any cante to be identified by the position in which it's played. Guitar teachers, for the sake of expediency, will sometimes tell students things like alegrías is in C, mirabrás is in E and so on, even when they know it's not really true. You can't present the enormity of flamenco to students in one swell foop.
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No such thing as an exception that proves the rule but I like how you pulled that out of your hat. Let's see, classes with Paco Fernandez, Nino Jero, Canito, Paco Jimeno, Paco Jarana. All of them tapped many ways when they did in fact tap.
All guitarists, singers and dancers feel bulerías in a variety of ways from one moment to the next, it's the nature of bulerías, it's what makes the form so endlessly fascinating. Nevertheless, the binary beat is the only one that holds the many layers together, which is why it's what most people are marking most of the time. Watch guitarists' feet and you'll immediately see they beat in twos the vast majority of the time.
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Theory is practice (Pierre Bourdieu, Wittgenstein, Foucault). Study any recording whether CD or YouTube, and you will find plenty of places where guitarist (well-respected ones who do in fact respect the cante) nudge the singer. Think of all the jerezanos who resolve the buleria on beat 4 of the final compas. Are they ALL finishing early and therefore disrespecting the cante...or...are they nudging the singer...or...have they conventionalized that way of ending (musical and geographical choice if they did)?
You are clearly using a different definition for "resolve". A guitarist who is familiar with cante recognizes certain melodic paths and knows at what point the singer is definitely going to land in a given chord. This is not the same as what (too many) young guitarists do, which is pave the way for the melody, playing the chord before the singer has signalled it. I'm not talking about anything observed on youtube, but from experience with dozens of guitarists, good, bad and ugly. Being in the singer's "hot-seat" gives a different perspective.
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I do concede that everything you say is probably true...but as I said, practices are located in time and space.
They say Einstein didn't have compás.
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Any analysis of recording prior to 1970 reveals my point, which is...sometimes people do not do what they say they do. There are examples everywhere of pre-1970 guitarists resolving before the singer.
I began singing in 1960, and without a doubt the specific issue I'm referring to did not surface until the seventies. You're talking about something else.
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Case in point: Camaron and Paco Cada Vez Que Nos Miramos.
The letra at 2:09. Camaron resolves a smidgeon after Paco. Does that mean Paco is wrong? NO. But he did resolve first. Hmm.
Like I said, the 1970's. Paco and Camarón introduced cante "arrangements". You're right, I remember hearing Paco jump the gun with Camarón, and at the time thought it was something that would be a passing fad.
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Is Carrion not experienced, respected, and accomplished? He goes out of compas all over the place.
I've sung with Carrión many times. He does not have a compás problem. He is a brilliant accompanist and singer with a profound knowledge of cante. For this reason he was the most logical choice to play for traditional singers like Chocolate or Chano. Before click-tracks altered listeners' perception, compás was a powerful pulse, not units of 12 delivered in neat packages. If you have to count out a Gerardo falseta to see if it's in compás, alarm bells ought to ring.
Chord resolutions can literally fall on any beat or non-beat. It's the guitarist's job to make it sound "right". Changing on 3 and 10 is a fine way to approach learning about accompaniment, but will only take you so far.
_____________________________
Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jun. 8 2011 9:38:45
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