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Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: At the doorstep to a new epoch? (in reply to XXX

quote:

the art of language is not to to be able to explain basic things in a complicated way, but to explain complicated things in a basic way.



Correct.

I think it is just Ruphus´s sense of humor.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 29 2011 20:35:18
 
marrow3

Posts: 166
Joined: Mar. 1 2009
 

RE: At the doorstep to a new epoch? (in reply to Ron.M

quote:


Viva Democracy!


(Christ!...I've got to vote for these bastards on Thursday and the Monster Raving Loonie Party is no longer an option...oh God... )


John Lennon:

WE MUST NOT FORGET ...
... THE GENERAL ERECTION

Azue orl gnome, Harassed Wilsod won the General Erection,
with a very small marjorie over the Torchies. Thus pudding the
Laboring Partly back into powell after a large abcess. This he
could not have done withoutspan the barking of thee Trade
Onions, heady by Frenk Cunnings (who noun has a SAFE
SEAT in Nuneating thank you and Fronk (only 62) Bowels
hasn't)...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 29 2011 20:49:19
 
Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: At the doorstep to a new epoch? (in reply to marrow3

quote:

am conversating and corresponding with native speakers since decades. From there I know that I for the most can be understood rather well. As the vast of native speakers found our exchange interesting enough, I have hardly seen them complaining (


yes but this is an international forum with some having only a very basic understanding of english ...or are you only interested in the opinion of native english speakers ?


anyway...i am not trying to tell you how to write, feel free to do so anyway you like

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 29 2011 20:50:38
 
fevictor

Posts: 377
Joined: Nov. 22 2005
From: Quepos / Manuel Antonio, Costa Rica

RE: At the doorstep to a new epoch? (in reply to Ruphus

Ruphus,

I think that you have a lot of interesting ideas and I would love to be able to understand them, but I'm afraid that I cant.

I think step one is to pay attention to the squiggly red line under misspelled words...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 29 2011 21:22:48
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3435
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: At the doorstep to a new epoch? (in reply to rogeliocan

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogeliocan

On your first point, you have to think who you are writing for, if you are writing for yourself that is fine, if it's for an audience and to be understood, many are telling you, right now that it's not working. It's important to be aware of that.

I don't understand the last sentence, it's almost phylosophical, but that just me, others may enjoy.


More than once, Ruphus has told us that his writing accurately reflects his thinking. I have come to believe him.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2011 0:38:06
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: At the doorstep to a new epoch? (in reply to Doitsujin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pgh_flamenco

Ruphus, why don't you read the English translations of a German author, e. g., Schopenhauer, and use his grammar and sentence structure as a template?


That sounds like a good idea, seriously.
Where I am now however, you won´t find much other literature than in Arabic letters. ( I am now since a while trying to have a list of books on the countrys ancient history in German from Germany, unsuccessfully so far. - With the people coming over already dragging guitars for me.)

Also, since I came to here, with learning the new language I had to realize the age toll. Obviously I am less progressing and much less flexible than I used to be. The times when I used to learn a language in just some months are clearly over now.
Looks as if my shrinking brain was already at remaining capacity by following news and insights.
- Could I just switch it off for a while, I certainly would.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Florian

yes but this is an international forum with some having only a very basic understanding of english ...or are you only interested in the opinion of native english speakers ?


No. What you quote is a reply to Ron who had mentioned native speakers.



quote:

ORIGINAL: fevictor

Ruphus,

I think that you have a lot of interesting ideas and I would love to be able to understand them, but I'm afraid that I cant.

I think step one is to pay attention to the squiggly red line under misspelled words...


I don´t have a spell-correcting application running on my computer.

Congrats besides to the place you are living.
A beatiful country, and I believe Tico´s mentality ( the original anyway ) to be one of the most enchanting in the world.

Richard,

Reading from you for much longer than the foro, I think it could be quite entertaining meeting you in person ( hypothetically; I am getting lazier with travelling from year to year ).
Especially as we come from politically opposing perspectives, but share attentive approach.
Your consideration and muse for yet the most remote of culture and culture product impresses me sincerely.
-

Hey ya, fellows,

Now that we´ve gone through Ruphus´evil writing ...

I would be really interested in your personal perception of the globale matter of this thread.
Do you think to observe changes with common sense? What kind of changes? And what would you think as urgently required for this planet to stay populated?

Alternatively:
Should you be of the opinion that current routines were NOT threatening mother earths creation to collapse in just a couple of years ( Like Edguerin does / states in his above post ) ...
How do you manage that?
Will you restrict your lecture on established party organs / read exclusively soccer magazines, generally skip documentaries?
Do you believe in buddhism ( = what is not looked at will not be in existance in the same time )?
How do you keep accumulating ugly / pressing facts out of sight over time?

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2011 10:42:18
 
rogeliocan

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

RE: At the doorstep to a new epoch? (in reply to Ruphus

Hey Ruphus! Easy on the getting old thing. I think you are better then you think because this last post of yours is clear! I understood everything you wrote and I did not have to re-read anything. So you learn faster than you think. Good stuff.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2011 11:00:00
 
rogeliocan

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

RE: At the doorstep to a new epoch? (in reply to Ruphus

Now that I understand the question.
I think earth can sustain a lot more beating and sadly enough, I think we will still continue to abuse for a while. Seems like we wait to the last minute to make corrections.
On my part I did a small contribution, my family has cut out most meat from our diet, we now only have meat 2 nights per week. It's something that we only started 2 months ago and now we have vegetarian recipes that are satisfying... not running for the loaf of bread right after dinner.
Although I say it's a small contribution, multiplied by many people, this would be a good contribution.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2011 11:05:06
 
Escribano

Posts: 6423
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: At the doorstep to a new epoch? (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

How do you keep accumulating ugly / pressing facts out of sight over time?


It gets harder and harder as I get older. I throw myself into my interests, mainly creative stuff like music, photography and writing.

_____________________________

Foro Flamenco founder and Admin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2011 11:38:43
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1750
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: At the doorstep to a new epoch? (in reply to Ruphus

I do not think it is so importand to save the earth or the people on it.....the real essence of what we are is there to stay any where anyhow.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2011 11:40:30
 
KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: At the doorstep to a new epoch? (in reply to Doitsujin

Hello Ruphus,

I find the collective reality being revealed to be complex and disturbing.

With thought and research revealing solutions and also problems, i wonder if there is ever an end to this cycle that, borrowing one of your descriptions, leads to reason.

What are your thoughts regarding the ideas presented by Jaque Fresco and his venus project?

I find his ideas interesting although I feel the overall plan leaves much unresolved.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2011 11:41:37
 
KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: At the doorstep to a new epoch? (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

And what would you think as urgently required for this planet to stay populated?


A huge wake up call.

An end to this reality

A common united purpose with an unquestionable resolved outcome

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2011 12:25:06
 
fevictor

Posts: 377
Joined: Nov. 22 2005
From: Quepos / Manuel Antonio, Costa Rica

RE: At the doorstep to a new epoch? (in reply to Doitsujin

I think that the earth will continue to take all the abuse that we are giving it, but what will ultimately change is the way that we live.

I think that our diets will change dramatically over time. We will be eating farmed fish, all sorts of different grains and bugs vegetables that can be easily cultivated in multi story green houses. The days of eating fresh fish and juicy steaks will soon come to and end or will be reserved for the rich and elite. Vegetables will be fed by recycled / treated water, maybe greywater or even blackwater.

Showers will be regulated. I can see governments implementing water restrictions soon to individual houses - like for example only receiving X amount of gallons per day; how you use it is up to you.

We should all start eating off of Teflon plates...just wipe them clean, no water!

Petroleum and natural gas will run out, or at least will no longer be available to the average Joe. We will have to adapt to that too. Public transportation on a massive scale will be the only option.

I also think that we will see major wars break out over oil and water. Quality of life will continue to drop and a new reality will settle in, but that's the way its always been.

We will be here until the next big asteroid hits and wipes us out, or until a virus wipes us out. This latter will probably end up being man made. Looking at whats going on in Japan also leads one to think that a nuclear winter or radiation on a global scale will be a major contributor to our demise.

I am all for doing my part to save the world, and will continue to do so...but I honestly think that the average Joe recycling glass and tin cans, separating news papers and that is just a feeble attempt at tackling an enormous problem. We can turn our engines off while we are parked and carpool everyday, but what about the hundreds of millions of people in third world countries that are still using two stroke engines, dumping their chemicals and garbage into oceans and rivers, etc. Our efforts are nothing in the grand scheme of things...that's the sad reality.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2011 13:47:16
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: At the doorstep to a new epoch? (in reply to Doitsujin

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogeliocan
Easy on the getting old thing. I think you are better then you think because this last post of yours is clear! I understood everything you wrote and I did not have to re-read anything. So you learn faster than you think. Good stuff.

Now that I understand the question.
I think earth can sustain a lot more beating and sadly enough, I think we will still continue to abuse for a while. Seems like we wait to the last minute to make corrections.
On my part I did a small contribution, my family has cut out most meat from our diet, we now only have meat 2 nights per week. It's something that we only started 2 months ago and now we have vegetarian recipes that are satisfying... not running for the loaf of bread right after dinner.
Although I say it's a small contribution, multiplied by many people, this would be a good contribution.

I hope to not dissapoint you in the future. The main difference with the post you are relating to ( and others thelike ) is that I had to convey much less of context.
-

Not that I have bad intensions ( in the opposite, do appreciate your initiative on diet ), this "earth can sustain a lot more beating" is what I extract from common thinking, together with other miraculous expectations like future resurrection of extinct species etc.

Yes, the dimensions of this planet are impressive.
Just thinking of the fact that there are 6000 lightnings per minute, and considering how little one comes to see of it ...

But what about the dimensions of destruction on the other hand?
Ever tried to imagine how 80 000 tons of CO² must be looking like (in containers, right)? Or primare forest of the size of Luxemburg, cut down daily?
150 species extincting daily?

What size would the planet need be to actually bear such devastation? Jupiter?

I don´t know what makes people envision earth as fantastic super hercules, but I suppose it must have to do with rudiments of the era when our world discovered nature as prime and us as actually subordinate.
The once constructive introduction* with earths nature as mighty and us as measly seems to have turend into a fatal mantra at status quo.
( * At pre-industrial times with human population of far below 1 billion, I think )

From all that I know earth cannot take any more beating at all.
What you see still ( superficially ) intact is due to buffered / delayed effects of emissions from decades ago, of which many are coming down yet.
While we have since multiplied emissions that will amount.

Further, the global ecosystem works like a body. Bridging harm temporarily ( until relief shall come ), but collapsing just the more suddenly if the bridging will be followed by only more of injury.

If you want to estimate actual proportions of the relative damage, look at satellite pictures of the Amazonas from 30, 25 ... 5 years ago and now. Look at glaciers, look at the size of deserted plains. Look at dimensions of erosion. Look at overfished oceans ( over 90% of inhabitants gone ), at the giant fields of crumbling plastic trash there ( eaten by fish that kick the bucket ), look at poison rates in soil and water.

This planet is definitly not as overpowering as you think it to be.
Rather is it at five to twelve, and it hasn´t even yet absorbed coming pollution of past decades, let alone the contemporary output.

Even if we came to reason instantly, it wasn´t for certain at all whether this planet could stay blue.
- And the prime of fellow creatures like the big carnivors etc. will soon be gone anyway. ( Just thinking of it makes me feel lost.)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Escribano

quote:

How do you keep accumulating ugly / pressing facts out of sight over time?


It gets harder and harder as I get older. I throw myself into my interests, mainly creative stuff like music, photography and writing.

Yet, you must be too aware of the desaster to really escape the facts. Otherwise, I guess, you wouldn´t be seeking shelter.



quote:

ORIGINAL: gerundino63

I do not think it is so importand to save the earth or the people on it.....the real essence of what we are is there to stay any where anyhow.

Entelechy.

When hit by a car and having your knee broken, would you appreciate passengers´ bypass, for after all it not being their pain that you are going through?

I appreciate the unspeakbale suffering and struggling that it took the evolution on earth to put forth todays beauty of species.
All that to be ended a ~ 3 billion years too early ... Needlessly and for the sake of human retarted societal concepts and pathological greed, should be totally disproportional.

Further, you wouldn´t enjoy your stay with nothing but humans around. Neither should you fancy it, unless there were time channels found in space, which you better not count on.

Finally, if there was a survival without natural habitat, it would likely not be us who stayed, but our inheritance as self-repairing and self-developing machines. Which again would not really equal future human being.



quote:

ORIGINAL: KMMI77

Hello Ruphus,

I find the collective reality being revealed to be complex and disturbing.

With thought and research revealing solutions and also problems i wonder if there is ever an end to this cycle that, borrowing one of your descriptions, leads to reason.


As I understand it, approaching reason is our evolutionary specialzation.
Not that we invented reason ( and ethics ). Nature is filled with such examples that developed just pragmatically.

But specializing on it was our recipe for survival as the otherwise lost, physically weak species that we are.

I believe that development of reason has been with us constantly ( with only minor [ local or periodical ] exceptions).
And that the breakaway from human nature ( as highly social and tending to reason ) on common level to have occured from only about 5000 years ago until today.
An athroplogical blink, not even remotely long enough to have us adapted genetically, leaving us with psychosis and compensational behaviour under the logical blinkers and social / mental deprivation of our times.

I see us like original bonobos who went astray, ending up as chimpanzees for a short, yet fatal period.


quote:

ORIGINAL: KMMI77
What are your thoughts regarding the ideas presented by Jaque Fresco and his venus project?


I havn´t heard of him.
Supposing the venus project to be meaning space colonization:

I estimate such visions as inherently contra productive. ( Similar to after-life doctrins, that - with exception of hinduism and buddhism - contribute to making people irresponsible in the here and now.)

Imagening future exiles in space only enhances ignorance on earth.

And it should be a quite unrealistic scenario anyway.
Not only has our rather accomodating planet shown as already overtaxing us ...
( - at current culture. - With yet even possible planets outside the solar system [ <- potentially habitable ] prospectively turning out more demanding to our capacities as social and reasonable being ) ...

It should be near impossible anyway for human crowds to overcome psychic situations on long distances in hypothetical space transporters.

Just thinking of what preparation for moving exterristically would be taking ... Compared to the practically little it required to make a halt now, rethink and try enabling humane life right here ... Makes me dizzy.

This planet could certainly be paradise to everyone of us.
Easily and naturally.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2011 13:54:53
 
rogeliocan

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

RE: At the doorstep to a new epoch? (in reply to Ruphus

I understand what you are saying Ruphus, that even if man disapeared off the planet, there would still remain much for the planet to digest.

But I do believe that earth can take a bigger beating, I'm not saying that it will stay the way it is today, it will change and we will adapt even if eventually, a long time from now, we may have to leave it. I also beleive that many changes you mention are natural, something I don't want to debate; it's being debated enough already.

In the end I would ask, what can and will you do about it? You can quit your job and join Greenpeace but the little things count to, especially if everyone does the little things and there are lists of these little things spread accross a multitude of Green web sites. But even with this I will not shut down my electricity, I will continue to savor my coffee that comes from another continent and I continue to travel to other countries. I still leave a footprint. I am participating in a little part of the solution, but, as all of you and everyone else, I am part of the problem. The Matrix said it well, we are a virus, a cancer.

Now on that happy note I will go make some lunch, with veggies that mostly come from other provinces and my cantaloupes from half-way accross the world from a country that selling it's future to make money now (at 90cents a kilo).

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2011 15:02:14
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: At the doorstep to a new epoch? (in reply to Doitsujin

quote:

ORIGINAL: KMMI77

quote:

And what would you think as urgently required for this planet to stay populated?


A huge wake up call.

An end to this reality

A common united purpose with an unquestionable resolved outcome


Love the idea!

If
# people knew of needless sacrifice and withhold options. Of the deprive of labour reward and spare time. Of needless curb of awareness, living standard and living intensity.

# there be support towards deconstructivism and objectivity from ground school up. Untained information about actual past and potential future.
# all of given technological skills were freely distributed and engaged for united purpose ...

... How crazy would that be!!
It would take a chunky book to just outline the rapid mutual processes and blossoming on literally all levels.
Food ressource and -making, mobility, energy, labour time, employment rates and -options, education, obligation, social life, environment ...
Menkind would show that it can be almost as productive as it used to be destructive once.

An epoch I would so love to live in.
( Abandoning my current feeling of having been dropped on wrong planet.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fevictor

I think that the earth will continue to take all the abuse that we are giving it, but what will ultimately change is the way that we live.

I think that our diets will change dramatically over time. We will be eating farmed fish, all sorts of different grains and bugs vegetables that can be easily cultivated in multi story green houses. The days of eating fresh fish and juicy steaks will soon come to and end or will be reserved for the rich and elite. Vegetables will be fed by recycled / treated water, maybe greywater or even blackwater.

Showers will be regulated. I can see governments implementing water restrictions soon to individual houses - like for example only receiving X amount of gallons per day; how you use it is up to you.

We should all start eating off of Teflon plates...just wipe them clean, no water!

Petroleum and natural gas will run out, or at least will no longer be available to the average Joe. We will have to adapt to that too. Public transportation on a massive scale will be the only option.

I also think that we will see major wars break out over oil and water. Quality of life will continue to drop and a new reality will settle in, but that's the way its always been.

We will be here until the next big asteroid hits and wipes us out, or until a virus wipes us out. This latter will probably end up being man made. Looking at whats going on in Japan also leads one to think that a nuclear winter or radiation on a global scale will be a major contributor to our demise.

I am all for doing my part to save the world, and will continue to do so...but I honestly think that the average Joe recycling glass and tin cans, separating news papers and that is just a feeble attempt at tackling an enormous problem. We can turn our engines off while we are parked and carpool everyday, but what about the hundreds of millions of people in third world countries that are still using two stroke engines, dumping their chemicals and garbage into oceans and rivers, etc. Our efforts are nothing in the grand scheme of things...that's the sad reality.


And this under preserved societal structures as is ought to be yet most optimistic prospect.


Only very few movies left me with as many flash backs like "Soylent Green" when it was released.

Yeah, Canada will become the water emirates of the future.
And oil will not be fuel, but expensive material.

Wiped teflon ... hadn´t thought of it yet, ... and nuggeds of cockroach ...

Will it be human to live without fellow species ( with just green house plants and roaches )?
Could we be humanly that way?

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2011 15:34:38
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3435
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: At the doorstep to a new epoch? (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruphus

Richard,

Reading from you for much longer than the foro, I think it could be quite entertaining meeting you in person ( hypothetically; I am getting lazier with travelling from year to year ).
Especially as we come from politically opposing perspectives, but share attentive approach.
Your consideration and muse for yet the most remote of culture and culture product impresses me sincerely.
-


Thanks, Ruphus. I appreciate it. I am sure we differ on some political issues. I have never met anyone I agreed with completely.

But I would caution you against assuming what my politics are. I spent a career as part of--or more recently, working for--the US military-industrial establishment. But the whole time I felt the same as I did when I was a kid trumpet player.

My jazz friends would ask me, "How can you sit there all night and read notes off the page?" My symphony friends would ask me, "How can you stand to gig with those guys who just noodle around and play out of tune?" I knew I could never explain it to them, and that I would never wholly fit in.

A couple of years ago I went to the Air and Space Museum in Washington DC with my thirty-year old friend who grew up in the Soviet Union until she was 13. She pointed with pride to a number of Soviet firsts in space flight. Teasing her I asked, "So, should the Soviets have won the Cold War?"

It infuriated her. "No!" she exclaimed, "They were a bunch of evil bastards!" I take some satisfaction in having played a small role in their defeat.

But we (the US) did some horrible things during that conflict. During the height of the Vietnam war I went home from work early one day. My wife asked me why.

"Couldn't get any work done."

"Why not?"

"There was a burning village on my desk."

I had nothing personally to do with that war--in a sense. I lost some of my best childhood friends in it. Three were decorated as heroes. No doubt some of you have felt the bitterness brought by learning such a thing at the funeral of a friend--proud of their virtue, angry at the waste of such valuable lives. .

I was in the high tech, "strategic" part of the battle. The Soviet military-industrial complex was my foe. Nobody was injured by an intercontinental missile in the Cold War, because both sides correctly calculated the balance of terror.

Yet I was an American. My country was responsible for the war in Vietnam. Long before it was over I came to realize we were in the wrong.

How long will we survive? I am old enough to partially realize the vast extent of my ignorance. Yet I have seen the world change radically in my lifetime.

When I was eight or nine years old I read the autobiography of a British professional hunter. Villages in India would hire him to kill tigers that were eating the villagers' friends and relatives. The tigers were crafty and dangerous, but the hunter was more so. The man had killed over a hundred tigers.

To my childish self, he was a hero. To my brother, my father and eight uncles he was, too. We had grown up in the vast wilderness of south Texas. It was inconceivable that one day the tigers would be gone from India, or that there would be no more jaguars in south Texas.

When I first went to Mexico City the sky was clear. You could see the famous volcanoes every day. The architecture, colonial and modern, was impressive and beautiful. Only thirty years later I wept to see the majestic elm trees in the Alameda dying from pollution. A half block away the smog began to be visible. When I got back to Austin my throat was sore for a week.

A couple of years ago, on the little tropical island where I lived, I sat at lunch with two engineers and a school teacher, all Americans in their late twenties to mid thirties. i was utterly dumfounded when they all agreed that it was beyond the power of mankind to seriously alter the planet. These were intelligent, educated people!!

I was seven years old when World War II ended. I could read the newspaper fluently. I can remember a time when it wasn't clear who would win.

I can remember when my namesake uncle enlisted in the Navy. It was Saturday. He came to the airport my father and his partner owned in San Antonio. All the men gathered around, pounded him on the back, cheered and shook his hand. There was beer and barbecue at our house that evening. My father and uncles were all in the military. The US was united in a way I have never seen it since.

Will it take a catastrophe like WW II to unite us in action to preserve the environment and our own lives? I see nothing to indicate that the US will respond to the situation any time soon. We stumbled into the Great Depression. The Japanese foolishly brought us into WW II. We and the Soviets hypnotized ourselves into the terror of the Cold War. We fell into the recent financial crisis by deluding ourselves.

But am I a pessimist? No. Looking at myself, I see an irrepressible optimist. We have muddled through crisis after crisis.

One of my ancestors was the Escheator of Suffolk in England in 1358. It was a minor office, compared to his landed wealth and military power. He made sure that if someone died without heirs, his estate went to the King. He got a percentage of the estate. 1358 was the first year of the Black Plague in England. It wiped out a fifth of the population. Whole villages died. Extensive tracts of land were depopulated. My ancestor survived--making my family one of the wealthiest in eastern England for centuries.

We may end by provoking an environmental catastrophe. But some of us will survive. Some will even turn it to their advantage.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2011 18:25:56
 
KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: At the doorstep to a new epoch? (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

I havn´t heard of him.
Supposing the venus project to be meaning space colonization:


Nothing to do with space colonization. Here are some of his suggestions



_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2011 20:45:07
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3435
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: At the doorstep to a new epoch? (in reply to KMMI77

"Politicians are ignorant, incompetent people," says Jaque Fresco.

Well, Julius Caesar may have been an exception, but they assassinated him.

At least politicians represent us. Not that they act in our interests--but they reflect the ignorance and incompetence of the electorate acting as a group.

C. Northcote Parkinson said," A virtuoso committee may rise to the level of a chimpanzee. Larger organizations behave more like amoebas."

I agree with most of Fresco's diagnosis. He hadn't time to present his prescription in any detail. The 20th century, however, teaches that prescriptions for society have sometimes been more dangerous than the disease they propose to treat.

I wish it weren't so. We look fairly sick to me.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2011 21:34:28
 
KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: At the doorstep to a new epoch? (in reply to Doitsujin

quote:

At least politicians represent us. Not that they act in our interests--but they reflect the ignorance and incompetence of the electorate acting as a group.


Hi Richard,

Unfortunately there is not a great deal of choice or alternatives available to members in many electorates. Alternative views being mostly kept external to currently operating political systems.

The social problems would appear to be some of the most difficult to address with evolution revealing many issues that i assume first need to be addressed as individuals. I myself find it confusing given a limited understanding of the overall picture. My upbringing, life experiences, exposure to controlled media, information and education system, not to mention other individuals in the same predicament hasn't helped. I personally view this as a part of evolution rather than conspiracy..

All being willing/able to take action,acknowledge responsibility, feel and understand ones interactions and consequences of all actions on oneself and others understandably, although i believe unnecessarily, raises fear. Perhaps there is potential revealed when understanding the above?

I'm not even sure if love, happiness and sustainability in this reality would solve or satisfy?? Seems reasonable although I have no answers regarding the path

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2011 4:37:39
 
estebanana

Posts: 9410
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: At the doorstep to a new epoch? (in reply to Doitsujin

I like carrots. On Tuesday I drink beer. Other days I like turnips. Once I ate an onion, like it was an apple.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2011 5:03:56
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: At the doorstep to a new epoch? (in reply to estebanana

quote:

Once I ate an onion, like it was an apple.


Yeah, I do that too!
If I don't have any apples and could really go one.
But you've got to wear a clothes peg on your nose so you can't smell it.

Delish!

cheers,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2011 9:06:29
 
Kevin James Shanahan

Posts: 407
Joined: Oct. 10 2010
From: Wooli, NSW Australia

RE: At the doorstep to a new epoch? (in reply to Doitsujin

Yeah ,grow vegies, catch fish , stay human

_____________________________

Peace.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2011 9:38:15
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: At the doorstep to a new epoch? (in reply to Doitsujin

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogeliocan

I understand what you are saying Ruphus, that even if man disapeared off the planet, there would still remain much for the planet to digest.

But I do believe that earth can take a bigger beating, I'm not saying that it will stay the way it is today, it will change and we will adapt even if eventually, a long time from now, we may have to leave it. I also beleive that many changes you mention are natural, something I don't want to debate; it's being debated enough already.


That sounds as if there had been an actual diskurs between equally backed-up / scientifical and proprotioned sides.
Trust me, there never has been such.

What has been instead was arbitrary denial from PR mercenaries, who achieve a lot despite their baselessness.

According to a study 97% of all climatologists see a global warming caused by menkind.
Yet, 30% of the German people and even 40% of Americans doubt a global warming to occure at all.

All achieved by single persons like most prominently Fred Singer ( physicist whose last actual engagement in physics was contribution as Cold War warrior ) who has no clue nor actual scientifical argumentation on climate or medics. Yet, managed to publicly deny acidic rain, the ozon hole, global warming and effects of passive smoking by random claims like `science wasn´t all agreeing yet´, `ozon in atmosphere would decrease only locally´, `it wasn´t evident FCKW from spray cans to be related to that,´and that damage from passive smoking to be "trash science".
Yet, in 1994 he claimed that "chlorine in the stratosphere stems from natural source". 1995 stating before congress: "There exists no scientifical consens about the ozon hole and its consequences".
Right afterwards three chemists received the Nobel Prize for proof of FCKW influence to the ozon layer.

He and his co-smudgers vent random claims and cash in for that.
For a "certificate" that attests the harmlessness of pollution the German cole association wired 98 000 USD, and a US Electricity company paid 100 000 $.

These people are being engaged to pretend a scientifical debate where there is none in the academies.

What science actually confirms is that the rapid environmental changes and measure of exctinction currently happening to have never occured before on this planet.

And the scientifical community does not even pay attention to paid nutcases like Singer & co., other than remarking to the populism:
"Imagine Einstein would have to defend the relativity theory in a talk-show.
He wouldn´t have the glims of a chance."

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan
When I was eight or nine years old I read the autobiography of a British professional hunter. Villages in India would hire him to kill tigers that were eating the villagers' friends and relatives. The tigers were crafty and dangerous, but the hunter was more so. The man had killed over a hundred tigers.
To my childish self, he was a hero. To my brother, my father and eight uncles he was, too. We had grown up in the vast wilderness of south Texas. It was inconceivable that one day the tigers would be gone from India, or that there would be no more jaguars in south Texas.

The hero who shoots the owner of the place.
After all conception of conquistadores and settlers; isn´t it.

Nature traditionally appeared so infinite and invincible to people that it makes you wonder how the alleged quote from Sitting Bull ( faked by a journalist ) of "Yet, when you cut the last tree, cought the last fish ..." made it to such popularity and appreciation at all.

Eventhough much younger than you, I too remember well the common perception of the past.
What we consider as beautiful today used to be vastly perceived as wilderness in a disparaging sense. Yet, when the forest was cleared, the ground flattened and layered with concrete the place in question started to turn from "neglected" to "advanced".

Nowehere in history that drastically like in the US. A whole continent shaved. Noone can even imagine the sheer incredible amount of timber alone, eventhough Europe had seen an incredible deforesting before. Total mindlessness!

Had I a time machine at hand, there would be a couple of destinations on my schedule. One would be a trip to American natives, telling them how to to meet Spaniards and Portugese. With the networking they had, I guess the 200 tribes would had received the dispatch in time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan
I was seven years old when World War II ended. I could read the newspaper fluently. I can remember a time when it wasn't clear who would win.

It seems as if the worlds luck was that Hitler considered nuclear tech as "jewish science", and thus did not settle on developing the a-bomb.
Germanys luck on the other hand was that Roosevelt´s staff finally feared duds which could end up in German reverse engineering, and thus cancelled their plan of dropping several Fat Boy- thelikes in the middle of Europe.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan
Will it take a catastrophe like WW II to unite us in action to preserve the environment and our own lives? I see nothing to indicate that the US will respond to the situation any time soon.

A question of PR I think.

The USA had no problem with Hitler and his policies.
In the opposite, American industrials like Coca Cola, Ford etc. were very satisfied with thier undertakings there and actually sponsored the yet unknown Adolf. Counting with cockaigne of free ressources, plants and labour in coming occupied countries.
Even the KZs, chase and killing of millions of jewish, communists, socialists, roman and handicaped people couldn´t move the US adminstration.

Yet, after Stalingrad and the realization that Stalin would not be defeated but instead going to strike back and march to Europe, the US adminstration started the print barrel; informed countrymen about the master race doctrin and holocaust.

If Fox TV & co. were to start similar press work on environmental issues we would be seeing sudden progress, just as with the switch from indifference to enmity during WWII.
Only that the actual reigns in the US prefer to keep up with the oil-based path and its affluent profits, whereas alternative technology would be meaning scrap of the current bonanza and investment at preliminary much less profit margins.

They are waiting for foreign competition to force them to new boundaries, and keep on cashing in until then.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan
But am I a pessimist? No. Looking at myself, I see an irrepressible optimist. We have muddled through crisis after crisis.

This crisis differs from all before, however.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan
One of my ancestors was the Escheator of Suffolk in England in 1358. It was a minor office, compared to his landed wealth and military power. He made sure that if someone died without heirs, his estate went to the King. He got a percentage of the estate. 1358 was the first year of the Black Plague in England. It wiped out a fifth of the population. Whole villages died. Extensive tracts of land were depopulated. My ancestor survived--making my family one of the wealthiest in eastern England for centuries.


I´m from a aristocrat family too, and am not eager to know about their reigning past.
Alone notion of past years unethical events by them suffice to me.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan
We may end by provoking an environmental catastrophe. But some of us will survive. Some will even turn it to their advantage.

Yeah, some possibly with their estate under oxygenated hoods, but even them will be watching old takes from natural environment yearningly.

Once its gone yet the dumbest starts appreciating.

Not to think of pedestrians and their day-after conditions.
Those science fictions where people despite foregone armageddon are still tweaking on vehicles and tools seem pretty unreal.
There likely won´t be the means.
Rather potential would be cultural retard and cannibalism.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KMMI77

quote:

I havn´t heard of him.
Supposing the venus project to be meaning space colonization:


Nothing to do with space colonization. Here are some of his suggestions
...

Thank you! I will try accessing it when getting around the censoring.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

"Politicians are ignorant, incompetent people," says Jaque Fresco.

Well, Julius Caesar may have been an exception, but they assassinated him.


I don´t get historians and common hype about Caesar.
How can unbelievable cruelty and unscrupulousness be regarded as genius?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

At least politicians represent us. Not that they act in our interests--but they reflect the ignorance and incompetence of the electorate acting as a group.

I never thought formal representation to be something positive on its own.
Representation that is not authentic is always to your disadvantage.

Further "ignorance" and "incompetence" implies occuring mistakes.
Usually however established policies are no mistaking, but actions of delegates who represent other parties interests than pretended by official title.

When was the last time that you believed say a minister of finance to be keeping together municipal budget, or even managing for its aggregation?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan
C. Northcote Parkinson said," A virtuoso committee may rise to the level of a chimpanzee. Larger organizations behave more like amoebas."

I agree with most of Fresco's diagnosis. He hadn't time to present his prescription in any detail. The 20th century, however, teaches that prescriptions for society have sometimes been more dangerous than the disease they propose to treat.


And with that post WWII time helped a lot with solidifying oligarchies. For, as of then it ought to be clear that you better don´t touch status quo, as only desaster could come out of any attempts to change.

Remember those times when bribe money could be around ~ 15 grands for a high official?
When the haul at the end of the day maybe was a ground lot for nada, a pool built for pocket money and a black bank account with ~ 200 000 bucks or so?

Meanwhile, the immunisation of establishment through post WWII dogm has inflatet corruption up to near total closeout of state property.
Remember Kashoggi anyone? With just 8 billion $ "richest man of the world"?
Cute, ain´t it?

And the hosts who shell out ever more year per year, to finance an exploding cockaigne of immunified skim, sit hypnotized; because rattling at the door can only collapse the house. So they have been told.

Richard,

Ensuring indepedent education and press,
Uniting science for tracing reasonable concepts,
establishing direct voting for the people,
and routines to prevent corruption ...

is not easy.

But much less of a burden and risk for the future than feeding blind kingdoms, I believe.

PS: Should you know Di ck Finn ( software I think ) tell him warmest regards from Babeck´s brother!


quote:

ORIGINAL: KMMI77

The social problems would appear to be some of the most difficult to address with evolution revealing many issues that i assume first need to be addressed as individuals. I myself find it confusing given a limited understanding of the overall picture. My upbringing, life experiences, exposure to controlled media, information and education system, not to mention other individuals in the same predicament hasn't helped. I personally view this as a part of evolution rather than conspiracy..


Evolution as I understand it is being determined by environmental conditions.

Other than with our knees and maybe the atlas bone, our evolution seems to have gone quite alright.
The problem rather seems to be that we have hit a road away from our natural fittings.

We are not meant to live as colony beings like ants, with everyone robotting to serve queens and courts.
And the contradiction of actuality against drives is showing with the psychological conditions.

Evolutionary, developing steps of homo sapines are considered to be in measure of 100 000 years.
The past thousands of years don´t even mean evolution on micro level.
Let alone common states looting since ~ 3 decades or earth-shaking new crisis biz-strategies since only little over twenty years by now.

What you relate to, I think, is culture.
Culture can change anytime, indeed.
Just as it did with the first dynasties.

Only, whether a change of culture to be inevitable or natural on principle, just because it occured, should be a questionable suggestion.


quote:

ORIGINAL: KMMI77
All being willing/able to take action,acknowledge responsibility, feel and understand ones interactions and consequences of all actions on oneself and others understandably, although i believe unnecessarily, raises fear. Perhaps there is potential revealed when understanding the above?


Definitly.
Most consequential with the misuse of primeval fear, like in all moralistic traditons.

The wag of constantly granted and revoked legitimation of a person´s existance, a method commonly used as retarded pedagogical lever, reduces the person´s capability of recognition.
That is because recognition will demand alteration / parting with ( predefined / foregoing ) terms, which however will be restricted by the self-deemed `questionable-existance´ individual.
By an uproot ego realization of own former view and belief as obsolete, is falsly deemed equal to disqualification of himself as a person.
With that bad news will be asssociated and feared as apparent personal challenge, and thus overlooked.

It is in fact the main lever for psychological mass control; involuntarily passed on from one generation to the other.

Ignorance, once anthroplogical escort against intellectual over strain and desperation, today though long overdue to fade, is being fueled since roughly 5 millenia / the upcoming of prudery and moralism.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2011 15:26:48
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3435
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: At the doorstep to a new epoch? (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruphus

The USA had no problem with Hitler and his policies.



My impression differs. I agree that the Soviets bore the greatest burden in defeating Hitler. But according to my elders, Roosevelt was kept from entering the war before 1941 by a strong isolationist faction in the US. It was not that they had no problem with Hitler, it was that they felt the US should not become entangled again in European affairs.

Nonetheless, Roosevelt prepared for what he saw as the inevitable. General "Hap" Arnold prepared a strong air force, building thousands of aircraft and training pilots and crews. In 1939 Congress repealed the Neutrality Act, alloiwing aircraft to be shipped to Britain. Immediately after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor in 1941, Arnold formed the Eighth Air Force, stationed it in England and assigned it to bomb Germany.

Arnold was the first Chief of Staff of the Air Force when it was separated from the Army in 1947. My father was an Air Force officer. I knew the first five Chiefs of Staff of the Air Force personally. They were captains and majors when my father was a lieutenant in the 53rd Squadron. We lived in Wasington, DC in the 1950s when I was a teenager.

Roosevelt appointed one of America's greatest soldiers, George Marshall, as Army Chief of Staff on September 1, 1939, the day Hitler invaded Poland. From 1939 to 1942 Marshall expanded and trained the Army from 189,000 men to over eight million.

The battle for Stalingrad didn't begin until August, 1942. It wasn't clear the Soviets would win until well into early 1943.

As you probably know, a sizable number of Germans emigrated to Texas when Kaiser Wilhelm and Bismarck instituted universal military service.

The Beck brothers had a grocery store in the little town of Scherz just outside the main gate of Randolph Air Base where we lived near San Antonio, Texas. One of the Beck brothers visited the homeland during the 1930s. He returned singing the praises of Hitler. The autobahns were magnificent, the trains ran on time... The other brother differed. The argument developed into a fist fight that half wrecked the store.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruphus

I´m from a aristocrat family too, and am not eager to know about their reigning past. Alone notion of past years unethical events by them suffice to me.



As a teenager, I did my best to ignore my grandfather's talks about family history. As my own children became teenagers, I began to see some value in it. I told them, "The only value I see in knowing nine hundred years of family history, is to see that over a long enough time, almost every human character trait will emerge, for good or ill."

For me, it instills a degree of humility to know that your own flesh and blood committed great crimes, as well as the occasional good deed.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2011 19:39:03
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: At the doorstep to a new epoch? (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

As you probably know, a sizable number of Germans emigrated to Texas when Kaiser Wilhelm and Bismarck instituted universal military service.


I once read that it was those German immigrants´ civility that produced a historical agreement between administration and American natives that was not betrayed on the side of the immigrants. That agreement in Texas having been the one and only fulfilled in North America.

Also, if I recall that correctly, at least some of the Texans must have felt greatful to the Indians.
With the country been very hard to farm, winters would bring severe hardship and famine over the invadors, until Indians showed them how to hunt wild turkeys.
Correct?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan
The Beck brothers had a grocery store in the little town of Scherz just outside the main gate of Randolph Air Base where we lived near San Antonio, Texas. One of the Beck brothers visited the homeland during the 1930s. He returned singing the praises of Hitler. The autobahns were magnificent, the trains ran on time... The other brother differed. The argument developed into a fist fight that half wrecked the store.


Hearing this makes instantly wanting to embrace the other brother.

This story also seems connected to a question that I am pondering on since many years.

Why will some bear healthy intellect and others not? And what could be the cause?

Minds that have been raised with the "wag of constantly granted and revoked legitimation" as mentioned above tend to seek revaluation in whatever way.
Even just perfidious and irrational revaluation like the feeling of hive-off privilege at sight of thirds´ misshape and distress.

This is not only the background of voyeurism for ache ( watching cage or pit fights / gawk traffic on highways after accidents etc.), but also why masses "unpredictably" / "suddenly" get cruel the minute they will be legitimated to do so.
Like with the "Reichskristallnacht", with the Wehrmacht in WWII, with the Chinese Culture Revolution or just now with rapings in Lybia after Gaddhafi encouraged the soldiers to do so.

Yet, even with the official "legitimation" to lift the fragile ego by harassing and tortmenting outlaws, there will always remain a minority who show healthy mentality against the common trend, and even incredible civil courage.

Like e.g. German individuals who would hide Jews or resistance fighters despite lethal threat to themselves and their families ( and who instead of being honoured for civil courage were diffamed and deprived of their pension in post-war Germany, besides ). Or at times, even SS-officiers who would shelter people before their Nazi comrades.

Or like the Beck brother that you describe for whom the crime, though far away, must have been present enough in mind to make him furious about his brother´s perfidy.

You gotta wonder; seriously.

When you think about the come about of the noble among us ...
Could it be education? Not with certainty; as the noble can be found at all stages of sophistication / illiteracy.
Could it be a matter of ( rational ) intelligence? Not with certainty; as the noble can be found among more and lesser intelligent.
Could it be general vita / living experience? Not always; as the noble can be found with most differing vitae.

Then again, there has been historical example that indicates civility as culturally conditioned.

The ancient Greeks refused to visit gladiator games the Romans had brought to them. They would disdain the cruelty, perceive no delight through sadistic voyeurism, even when the Romans tried luring them in with time off ( and snacks, I think ) for visiting the games, and yet when Romans finally forced them to go.

Dunno, maybe the phenomenon can only be circled in by inquiring the other way around.

What makes empathically impotent / pathologically compensating or indifferent? ( For lack of better definition on the fly.)

As there exist insights on precondition and formation of the criminal mind, I could think of potential backgrounds that might cover the cause of indifference in general.
... In fact, while typing this I have a feeling as if the answer was there.
I must have been putting the question the wrong way around.

Could be the matter can only be evaluated by asking like "What makes brutal / indifferent?" instead of "What makes noble?"

That must be it, for noble is human nature anyway.

Look at that. Decades of hunting for an answer, apparantly solved during a conversation on a chat list. Why not!
-


Aristocracy is just too vulnerable to hetching bad characters. Especially in the past and the "omnipotence" that it used to lent to the rulers.
The lack of equal company and feedback on doings / the unrestricted power on fellow people will just commonly produce inhumane character and violent temper.

Like Alexander the dumbass killing his most loyal compagnion in just a spontaneous impulse, etc.pp.

Just the more admirable the actually very, very few examples where princes and kings yet turned to seeking a general / paramount instance of judge.

Like Cyrus the Great.
"When I stepped into babylon as a friend and ascended the torne admist cheers of joy and pageantry in the governor´s palace, ...
my contless soldiers roamed babylon in peace and sincerity.
I forbade harassment and terror all over Somer and Akkad. I strove for peace, in Babylon and in all other cities ...
I abolished forced labour in respect with citizens of Babylon ..., which was against their social status.
I helped restore destroyed houses ... I accomodated them again with a peaceful palace, ducks and doves ..., I tried to preserve their habitats ..."

("..." = missing parts on a clay board )

The complex reasoning behind this attitude, from almost 2600 years ago, voluntarily and autonomously voiced long before ressembling sense on a broader level anywhere.
Long before Bartholomeus and others who pathed the measure of contemporary civil standards ...
Leaves me admiring not only for its genuineness, but especially for springing off from an emperor victorious and mighty like no other, still and despite empathical and reasoning all by himself.

Quite a spectacular occurance and challenge, I think.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2011 13:00:55
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3435
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: At the doorstep to a new epoch? (in reply to Ruphus

quote:



ORIGINAL: Ruphus

Aristocracy is just too vulnerable to hetching bad characters. Especially in the past and the "omnipotence" that it used to lent to the rulers.
The lack of equal company and feedback on doings / the unrestricted power on fellow people will just commonly produce inhumane character and violent temper.



In Washington, DC when I was a teenager, fourteen generals lived on the street where we did. All whom I remember had been commanders of large units that were important in winning WW II. Many suffered from the defects you describe. It was an instructive study in character.

There were other useful lessons. Dinner at our quarters was a formal affair: white tablecloth, good china, real silver, usually waited on by a servant. If you wanted to have anything to say, you had to have a good story and speak up in a loud, clear voice. But my brother and I were encouraged to take advantage of the training, never ridiculed or put down. We were listened to carefully and corrected with respect when warranted. It helped both of us in our subsequent careers.

My father was on MacArthur's staff during the first year of the Occupation of Japan. Hap Arnold wanted one of his guys there. Dad hated it.

While we lived in Washington, one of the only two times I ever heard my parents arguing concerned MacArthur. We were going to New York to see a play and dine at good restaurants. After 44 years of distinguished service, 33 of them as a general, MacArthur had been sacked for insubordination by Truman. He was living in New York. Military etiquette of the time dictated that my father and mother must call upon him.

As I walked past the closed door to their bedroom, I heard my father say, "I will not go to kiss his ring in his throne room at the Waldorf-Astoria!"

My mother replied calmly, "Dear, you know you must."

In the event, I went along to see the General of the Armies. He was like a charming great-uncle to me. He knew what sports I played, what instrument I studied, how I did in school. It was amazing. Dad said he still had a staff to do research and brief him.

William Manchester wrote a good biography of MacArthur called "American Caesar". An excellent title. Just as Caesar embodied the ideal of Roman aristocracy, MacArthur embodied the ideal of American military culture. Caesar conquered and civilized Gaul, MacArthur was a strategic genius and remade Japanese society. Both suffered from extreme egotism.

Years after my father retired, I visited my parents. Lying on the table between their favorite chairs was a copy of Manchester's book. In her sewing room I asked my mother what she thought of it. "It's your Father who is reading it," she replied, much to my surprise.

When I had the chance, I asked Dad, "How is Manchester's book?"

"It's actually pretty good," he replied. "He doesn't get everything perfectly right, and there are some things he didn't know."

The story of MacArthur's coverup of the Emperor's part in the war came out in the late 1990s. Hirohito died in 1989 and became the Showa Emperor. Some members of the wartime Imperial Household had died and their diaries were published. Manchester knew nothing of this. Although my father had to have known of blaming Tojo for the Emperor's part in the war, he never mentioned it. He was faithful to his oath of secrecy until he died.

My father continued, "I always thought MacArthur voted to acquit Billy Mitchell at the court martial--but that was a secret vote. Manchester did get MacArthur's opposing the Medal of Honor for Skinny Wainwright. On the whole, it's a good, well balanced biography."

My father paused, shook his head. paused again. He almost never swore, but he said,

"You have to admit, the son of a bitch was a great man."

In a videotaped interview we didn't know about until after he died, my father was asked, "You knew some of the great military leaders of World War II. Which do you see as the greatest?"

Without hesitation, my father replied, "Oh, Eisenhower, definitely Eisenhower."

"And why do you say that, sir?"

"When Ike asked you to do something, you wanted to do it."

The interviewer probably didn't know the story. Even after WW II the American military was segregated. Blacks and whites didn't serve in the same units. Truman issued the executive order integrating the military, but it was absolutely ignored. It was Eisenhower who actually brought it about.

One evening at dinner, Dad said, "I saw the President today."

Though she probably already knew the answer, my mother asked, "What did Ike have to say?"

"He said he wanted Bolling Air Force Base here in Washington to be the first integrated Air force Base."

"How did you respond?"

"I told him I didn't think you could legislate human relations." That was code for favoring segregation. My father was the 11th generation of white southerners, and believed firmly in the superiority of the white race and segregation.

Dad continued, "But Ike said, 'I believe your background makes you an ideal candidate to carry this out.' So I want you boys to put aside any personal feelings you may have, and help in the effort."

Our personal feelings weren't what he imagined. My mother's mother grew up in Springfield, Illinois, in a house across the street from Abraham Lincoln's. My mother never let a racist remark pass in our house without a mild, respectful, but clear rejoinder. When she found out our cook was a leader in the black religious community in Washington, the two of them were among the founding members of an interracial charity.

Of course the black officers and senior enlisted men picked to integrate Bolling were the cream of the entire black Air Force. Working with them my father's racism evaporated, and changed to respect. It's one of the things I always admired him for the most--and "Ike" Eisenhower, too, for making Dad want to do it.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2011 20:15:28
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3462
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: At the doorstep to a new epoch? (in reply to Richard Jernigan

Wonderful story, Richard. It must have been very interesting growing up in your household.

I have spent my professional lifetime (A few years in the U.S. Air Force and career in the U.S. Diplomatic Service) working political-military issues. Your examples of General MacArthur and Caesar as being both geniuses and deeply flawed are spot-on, and I think representative of most men and women of genius and great talent. Great artists have both genius and deep flaws as well, running the gamut from Van Gogh to Picasso, to Andy Warhol. Great genius, deeply flawed. After all, they (and we) are all human beings.

MacArthur is a particular interest of mine, and I think his keeping Emperor Hirohito on the throne and shielding him from post-war prosecution, was a stroke of genius. There is incontrovertible evidence that Hirohito not only acquiesced in, but actually strongly supported Japanese aggression in World War II. The majority of people would have gladly seen him hanged. Yet, MacArthur had the foresight to know that if we were to remake Japanese society and bring them into the community of nations, it was essential to Japanese culture that the Emperor remain. MacArthur did it purely for pragmatic reasons, and he was correct in doing so.

In summing things up, for my part, I am quite ready to accept great talent and genius, in spite of the huge egos and deep flaws that often accompany it. Not to excuse the ego and flaws, but to accept that great men and women, on balance, contribute more to society through their talent and genius than they take away through their ego and flaws.

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2011 21:37:07
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3435
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: At the doorstep to a new epoch? (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

ORINAL: BarkelWH

It must have been very interesting growing up in your household.


Like any kid, I thought everyone grew up like that.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2011 22:20:10
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: At the doorstep to a new epoch? (in reply to Doitsujin

Thank you for the nice read, Richard!
Nothing like sophisticated discussion culture like you had the great opportunity to experience at your parents´ table.
It seems only consequential that it must have done you good.

I also liked to hear how your mother seems to have had preserved her very own world view and principles, or how your father was so ready for empirics and that he learned to revise his original bias.
At that time rare wittness of couples´or parental quarrel must have been rather common, for the - today still existing - misconception of harmony facade.
In case of your oldies however, respect and appreciation appear to have actually provided bond and love.

That must be one of the similarities to my childhood.
My parents also loved each other in a solid way like seemingly only in old b&w movies to be found anymore.
My mother couldn´t even imagine any other man in the over 30 years after his death.
Notwithstanding how much I urged her to allow a new partner in life, she couldn´t even just consider.
"I am spoiled; I really can´t. I would in mind compare with him involuntarily, and it is impossible for anyone to come even close to that."

Regarding culture of constructive dispute and discussion, the irony with my family configuration was that my father was as qualified as it gets, and my mother not at all ( she was raised in a backwarded prince house ).


That´s why I would had preferred to read your story of Mr. Truman´s legislature period in place of Einsenhower´s.

I have to yet infrom myself better on him, but from the things that I know President Truman must have been a sincere philanthrop.

While he was at the helm, all of the British steady pushings to get America to join toppling a certain country´s nascent democracy and install a dictatorial puppet would remain futile.
Yet following Eisenhower was there to willingly instigate to request.

The dictature they installed was the indirect background why I in the aftermath did hardly come to benefit of my father´s speciality as cosmopolite and acknowledged thinker. Only able to learn from him until the age of 5 and from a couple short seeings around 8 and 10, I had to then invest ways mostly on my own.
My father however was chased by the above dictature´s intelligent service abroad which again was openly assisted by American and European floppy hats, until he died when I was a teen.
His and other´s felony throughout the world had been that they asked for people rights and authentic democracy.

Truman must have been the only US-president post WWII who would had appreciated such, and respected foreign affairs anyway.
I always wonder how he must have done withstanding US industrials´ pushings.

Ironically, the biggest motivator for seeking worldly matters was the subjectivity of my mother, which drew me out of the house, going after philosophical and pragmatical sources.
These interests, I think, in the end made me basically following the way of my dad, though what I learned from himself had been only basic. Like the advice to listen to everyone truely, indepedently of apparent shape or status.
-

Most of you so far have not reflected on my question about eventual paradigm change.

In the meantime I saw the same thing discussed on TV once and one time mentioned in a paper´s online article.
Could be I am not the only one thinking to see such coming. ( Or at least discussions in that direction.)

I am convined that there is no way around reconnaissance if the planet is supposed to stay in at least worthwhile condition.

It will be required to unveil who has been enageged actually how and for what, now and in history, and to learn from that for the future.

There shall be untainted information supply as prerequisite for true democracy, which besides will show what kind of representatives and submissive thelikes of Eisenhower, Nixon, Reagan or Bushs etc. have been.

People will understand on a broader level the paradox that countries labelled democratic let nearly all of Nazi authority slip through and re-establish; how countries labelled democratic in truth pushed dictaturs and suppressed philanthropical movements after the war.
What vertical economizing is, and how it has been realized through corruption, nepotism, desinformation and superstition.

How present normality is actually fundamentally unnormal, and how "human nature" being the diametral opposite of what has been said and believed.
Once aware of what actually would be normal and natural, a final revulsion about a perverse status quo will be followed by calls and serious attempts for humane society.

Either reconnaissance, or humanity will be seing earth collapsing, highly likely so much sooner than deared to think of.

The number of scientists who see the eco-system crashing is growing regularly and rapidly with the data updates.

I don´t know what kind of tsunamis, droughts, pandemies, famines, eruptions or obvious extinctions it will take until full extent of global desaster will be recognized and discussed, but it will be happening rather certainly.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 2 2011 17:01:39
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