RE: Sabicas

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RE: Sabicas

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Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Sabicas (in reply to abraham)

quote:

ORIGINAL: abraham

Grisha (the russian virtuoso) said that he has never done any exercises (scales, arpeggios, etc.) and everybody knows how fluent he is on guitar.

My point is that if you are not born with it, you won't achieve it through any other means. No matter how many times you swing your i and m fingers back and forth.

That is absolutely ridiculous. I am sorry for your sake that you believe it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 15 2005 23:03:03

Ricardo

Posts: 14899
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Sabicas (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Ron, I am not sure I believe that 8-10 per second statement. At least speaking on music terms, I can count or say something faster than that and certainly play more notes than that per second, or tap them out on the table.

Some nerdy electric guitar kids did a midi experiment to put an end to boastful speed bragging. Some kids claimed to be able to play 40 nps and what not. The computer trilled some notes and sped up and after like 20 some notes per second, it sounded like a single tone to everyone that was human. I think the top speed for legato is close to 18-19 notes per second, and picking or picado, no more than 16 nps. The quick way to find your own top speed is to be able to maintain sextuplet rhythms w/ the metronome.

When I hear fast rasqueado, I can usually tell how many notes per beat are being played, by how the rhythm feels and sounds. Anyway, whether it is picado, legato, rasgueado, etc, what ever your Bpm is on the metronome, and you play six notes per click or beat, you divide the bpm by 10. So 6's at 120, is 12 notes per second. A triplet rasqueado (pai) in Alegrias like Paco does in La barrosa at 175 bpm, is 17.5 notes per second. I can hear what that rhythm is. I can't really do abanico that fast, but I don't think Paco can do a picado that fast either. I believe 16 nps to be the human limit for individual notes plucked (i-m) or picked (down-up). That would be 6's at 160. Can anyone beat that for more than 4 beats? Imagine triplets played in a bulerias at 320 bpm!

Anyway, practice can be fun when you know your limits and can enjoy doing rhythms w/ the metronome.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 15 2005 23:53:35

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Sabicas (in reply to Ricardo)

Ricardo,
I think he's right that you can shiver 8 times with a body part.

But in most speed-based techniques, there are several parts to each movement. Picado you have im, rasgueados you can have pcami, arpeggios pami...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 16 2005 0:25:43

Conrad

Posts: 533
Joined: Jul. 16 2003
From: Toronto, ON, Canada

RE: Sabicas (in reply to Ricardo)

Hey guys, has anyone ever heard the Alegria, "Puerta Tierra", from Guadiana's "Cuando el río suena" album? There is a falseta in there that is sextuplets at about 150bpm. It's not perfect, but impressive. I think it's El Viejin but I'm not sure.

Also, Vicente's DVD shows some very fast runs, and NOT in toque libre pieces, although those are fast too. But in fact, in the later pieces on that video, I noticed some very fast runs, like maybe sixteenths at 220 or something, if I remember correctly.

Paco will always be fastest though. In his Light and Shade DVD, there is a moment in the Concierto de Aranjuez section, in which the orchestra stops, and he plays a picado that is terrifying, and he looks likes it's effortless. It's like Miguel and Todd were talking about... players playing there burnout speed when there's no pressure... because at that point he was just noodling during practice with the orchestra. I've never heard anything faster by Paco. Maybe on Sirocco, the minera on there has some insanely fast runs. But he always sounds fast.

Ultimately, I'm with Miguel on all this though... endless picado is boring as hell. It has to be tasteful and expressive, energetic. Not like Nino de Pura. But it is still interesting to talk about.

-C

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 16 2005 2:19:56

Ricardo

Posts: 14899
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Sabicas (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

I think he's right that you can shiver 8 times with a body part.

Hmm, so a single "shiver" would be like a single down pick or finger movement? Ok, then that is right, down-up picking = 8x2 or 16 per second. If that is really what he means, than it DOES make sense to me.

I have a vid of Paco and Canizares playing Columbianas, and that long picado run is harmonized, 16ths at 220+. Vicente's bulerias has the same speed I think, but it is shorter bursts. And of course there was Paco vs McLaughlin, but do we need to go there? I have heard that Guadiana (great singer) w/ Viejin-really fast picado stuff.

Ricardo

PS, anyone notice that when Tomatito plays bulerias in Rito y Geografia, that Guadiana is the guy doing palmas in the center?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 16 2005 7:29:38