Hannabach HT's have changed the action on my guitar

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slowhands

Posts: 15
Joined: Apr. 22 2010
From: Norwich, UK

Hannabach HT's have changed the acti...

Can I have some opinions on what has happened here?

Yesterday I re-strung my guitar with Hannabach 827 HTs (I understand this brand is quite "high" tension compared to others). Previously it was strung with Luthier MT. Immediately the action is a full millimetre higher at the 12th fret, more like a classical action, and compared to my lowest strung classical guitar, it is actually higher at the 7th fret! Could the neck be bowing under the tension?

At first I was worried that the bridge was lifting, some of the glue behind it is visible, but I've seen worse. The soundboard itself is pretty much flat, including behind the bridge in both directions/axes.

Naturally I'm pretty worried that I'll be damaging the guitar if I leave these strings on, so any advice is gratefully received. Now, having de-tuned the strings, the action remains high, so I'm pretty confused...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2011 10:02:53

Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

RE: Hannabach HT's have changed the ... (in reply to slowhands)

I may not be the best authority here but how much have you detuned the strings?

There was a chart I saw somewhere on the foro here with the Hannabach tensions converted to lbs, and their tension is ridiculously high to me.

Check the straightness of your neck, and don't worry because in my experience, most anything can be fixed by an experienced luthier!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2011 11:35:00

Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010

RE: Hannabach HT's have changed the ... (in reply to slowhands)

I don't know what happened to ur guitar
but the point is that I always use Hannabach 827 HT and never faced problems in contrast i like them

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2011 11:44:59

slowhands

Posts: 15
Joined: Apr. 22 2010
From: Norwich, UK

RE: Hannabach HT's have changed the ... (in reply to Harry)

Thanks for the reply.

By de-tuned I mean I've slackened them off completely - there's currently no tension on the neck or bridge. And I guess I'd be pretty fed up paying for a repair after the first ever string change. (It's not a new guitar though - bought from a forum member)

A couple of pics of the bridge (it may have already looked like this - it certainly still looks secure on the soundboard)

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2011 12:59:37

slowhands

Posts: 15
Joined: Apr. 22 2010
From: Norwich, UK

RE: Hannabach HT's have changed the ... (in reply to slowhands)

from the side

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2011 13:01:04

slowhands

Posts: 15
Joined: Apr. 22 2010
From: Norwich, UK

RE: Hannabach HT's have changed the ... (in reply to Elie)

@DarkElieDraven

I liked the way they were sounding for the short time I've played with them!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2011 13:02:44

Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

RE: Hannabach HT's have changed the ... (in reply to slowhands)

I liked the Hanna's I used as well, but they were low tension! Still, the bass strings did not last long, especially the dreaded D.

Your bridge looks fine, and keep in mind that high tension strings do increase action, it is only normal. But my concern is that when you restring, with your usual brand, the action should be back to normal no? Perhaps one of the luthiers here can chime in on this.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2011 13:15:27

n85ae

Posts: 877
Joined: Sep. 7 2006

RE: Hannabach HT's have changed the ... (in reply to slowhands)

I'd be concerned about that crack that it appears you have running from string hole
to string hole. Why on earth would you use Hannabach HT's? Those are only
needed as support cables on suspension bridges ...

Regards,
Jeff

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2011 14:52:05

bursche

Posts: 1182
Joined: Jul. 19 2007
From: Frankfurt, Germany

RE: Hannabach HT's have changed the ... (in reply to n85ae)

It is normal that strings lift the soundboard, that is the main principle of a concert guitar. On all guitars I have had I could observe that the top lifted visibly after stringing the guitar. It seems obvious to me that the soundboard will be lifted slightly higher when operating with increased string tension. However, I have to admit that I was surprised when I read that your string action is 1 mm higher than before now, that is a lot.

When I had my Sanchis Bulerias I used to play it with extra hard tension D'Addarios in the beginning before I went over to normal tension.
It was ridiculous how much easier normal tension was to play, but unfortunately I didn't ever measure the action before and after the change.

Still I think it is very likely that the string tension has a strong influence on the action, maybe even changes it by 1 mm (?)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2011 15:25:38

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Hannabach HT's have changed the ... (in reply to slowhands)

the twisting of the bridge under tension usually lowers the action so i woundn't have thought it is that. My first guess would be the tension is pulling the neck foward alot. 2mm movement at the nut wouldn't seem too difficult.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2011 15:50:13

slowhands

Posts: 15
Joined: Apr. 22 2010
From: Norwich, UK

RE: Hannabach HT's have changed the ... (in reply to n85ae)

No crack - just a groove in the tie block.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2011 15:59:33

slowhands

Posts: 15
Joined: Apr. 22 2010
From: Norwich, UK

RE: Hannabach HT's have changed the ... (in reply to Stephen Eden)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SEden

My first guess would be the tension is pulling the neck foward alot. 2mm movement at the nut wouldn't seem too difficult.

...perhaps accounting for the higher action around the 7th fret too. I guess my concern is am I likely to do any lasting damage to the guitar, whether it be the neck or the soundboard, if I leave these strings on?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2011 16:02:20

slowhands

Posts: 15
Joined: Apr. 22 2010
From: Norwich, UK

RE: Hannabach HT's have changed the ... (in reply to bursche)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bursche

It is normal that strings lift the soundboard, that is the main principle of a concert guitar. On all guitars I have had I could observe that the top lifted visibly after stringing the guitar. It seems obvious to me that the soundboard will be lifted slightly higher when operating with increased string tension. However, I have to admit that I was surprised when I read that your string action is 1 mm higher than before now, that is a lot.

When I had my Sanchis Bulerias I used to play it with extra hard tension D'Addarios in the beginning before I went over to normal tension.
It was ridiculous how much easier normal tension was to play, but unfortunately I didn't ever measure the action before and after the change.

Still I think it is very likely that the string tension has a strong influence on the action, maybe even changes it by 1 mm (?)

I think it may even be more than 1mm - as, when slackened off the strings do sink by 1 mm closer towards the 12th fret, but that still seems higher than my previous action!
All done in the spirit of experimentation, but I don't suppose I'll be buying these strings again in a hurry.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2011 16:06:05

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Hannabach HT's have changed the ... (in reply to slowhands)

I think if the neck bends forward that much it may make it difficult to play around 5th fret. lowering the action at the saddle will help but the bow will still make the action higher in the middle. f you leave the strings on and the neck settles in the bowed shape it will be tricky to get back. Nothing someone in the know can't sort out though.

Why do you want those massively hard tension strings on any way?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2011 16:09:02

estebanana

Posts: 9367
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Hannabach HT's have changed the ... (in reply to slowhands)

There is a visible line running through the EAD and g string holes. Take the string off and flex the tie block by pushing down on it to see if that is a crack and it opens and closes. If it opens and closes you might want to show it someone, if not then it looks like an old repair where the tie block broke off and was reglued on. The glue residue around the bridge looks like home done repair work.

Hannabach strings, I never could understand why any uses them. There might be other factors play that are changing the action. Follow your best in tuition about the strings being too high tension. That guitar may just have a whippy neck or crazy little things like loose frets can allow the neck to pull up more under more tension. Sight down the finger board and push all the frets down with your fingernail one by one and see if any of them bounce.

If you have a whippy neck there's this thing called compression fretting where a guitar maker can judiciously make the neck stiffer by replacing key frets with ones that have micro wider tang. It compresses the fret slot outward giving the neck more resistance to flexibility.

There are lots of remedies and things to check, but first make sure the tie block does not want to break off because that would suck.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2011 16:11:37

slowhands

Posts: 15
Joined: Apr. 22 2010
From: Norwich, UK

RE: Hannabach HT's have changed the ... (in reply to Stephen Eden)

I'm keeping the strings slack for now so as to not cause unnecessary damage, but as I mentioned earlier, even in this state the string height at fret 12 still seems high (from memory) so I fear the neck has already bowed somehow. Perhaps I'm just scrutinising it too much.

I've settled on which strings I like on my classical guitars but am only just beginning to experiment with my blanca, hence I put these Hannabachs on that I had lying around.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2011 16:52:30

slowhands

Posts: 15
Joined: Apr. 22 2010
From: Norwich, UK

RE: Hannabach HT's have changed the ... (in reply to estebanana)

Definitely no crack - it's just the light in the shot, perhaps some slight pooling of the lacquer. Thanks for the info on checks to make - all the frets seem fine. I'm very likely to change the strings again tomorrow and wondered whether D'addario 45s or 46s would be the best test from a scientific point of view. I'm still not sure why the action hasn't returned to normal with no tension on the neck from these strings (slackened off).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2011 16:56:57

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Hannabach HT's have changed the ... (in reply to slowhands)

Do a test:
With strings tuned to pitch, press down the 6th string at first fret and last fret simultaneously. What is the distance between fret 7 and string?

What guitar is it?

Estebanana. The Hanabachs are for people into sexy underwear. Those trebles are like french lingery to some players.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2011 16:59:37

slowhands

Posts: 15
Joined: Apr. 22 2010
From: Norwich, UK

RE: Hannabach HT's have changed the ... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

It's a Bernal. The relief seems quite high using your test Anders. Visually I would say about 1mm. My Casimiro Lozano looks to have only half as much distance using the same test.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2011 17:26:29

estebanana

Posts: 9367
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Hannabach HT's have changed the ... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

Estebanana. The Hanabachs are for people into sexy underwear. Those trebles are like french lingery to some players.

You just made me feel dirty, please don't do that.

I always tell people Nylgut string feel like latex condoms on your fingers.

( Ron is now google searching on Nylgut strings)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2011 18:02:13

estebanana

Posts: 9367
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Hannabach HT's have changed the ... (in reply to slowhands)

1mm may be a bit high for relief. How's the weather there?

I still see that tie block back as a fixed break, but you can see it in person. Photos are often not reliable for diagnosing cracks.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2011 18:05:40

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2011 18:51:01

slowhands

Posts: 15
Joined: Apr. 22 2010
From: Norwich, UK

RE: Hannabach HT's have changed the ... (in reply to estebanana)

I've used a magnifying loupe - still don't see a crack. There's no flexing of the bridge either - if I press downon it the soundboard moves as it should but that's all.

Humidity wise, tonight its 49%, has been between that and about 56% this week - I tend to keep my guitars around 56 in their case anyway so all within the norms....

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2011 19:32:37

slowhands

Posts: 15
Joined: Apr. 22 2010
From: Norwich, UK

RE: Hannabach HT's have changed the ... (in reply to slowhands)

Update: I took the Hannabachs off and restrung with D'Addario 45s. Before putting the new strings on I laid a straight edge on the frets from 1 to 19 and took this photo at the 7th fret. As you can see, you can drive a bus through there. With the strings on the relief is the same (1mm+). While the action has improved, it is definitely higher than it was a few days ago, and it's most particularly noticeable around the nut and the first few frets. So I'm left thinking WTF? Surely the other strings can't have pulled the neck out of shape in such a short time (a neck reinforced with carbon rods at that)?