RE: Javier Conde Bulerias!!

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XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Javier Conde Bulerias!! (in reply to sean65)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sean65
It's all a bit school playground.

Looks like youre teaching him...
And then you can also teach him on how to play or what defines a "proper bulerias"!

Dont know if anybody noticed, but it is always the old schoolers that try to impose their tastes on others. I have never seen a "modern video" being posted on a traditional thread just to stir up their tastes... and whats even most strange is that this bulerias is not even modern by any standard!

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 26 2011 11:25:08

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Javier Conde Bulerias!! (in reply to XXX)

quote:

I have never seen a "modern video" being posted on a traditional thread just to stir up their tastes.

Well, here's a video to stir up folk's taste...

Gerardo could have been at that same juerga as Morao and his playing would not have been out of place..in fact I bet Morao would have LOVED it.

All I was saying is that there is a certain Bulerias "vibe" that I really like.

Some modern bulerias just sound a bit too "cool" for me personally.....I tend to like them for the technical stuff, but they don't stir me on a musical level.

But THIS is Bulerias IMO!

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 26 2011 11:44:23

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Javier Conde Bulerias!! (in reply to XXX)

We could talk about bulerias being played at 260bpm with non-musical bashing of the guitar in (some!) traditional flamenco, but why should go to a thread where people want to talk about traditional flamenco and post modern videos there?

We could also talk about how we are inspired by music other than flamenco.
You can be inspired by something and your neighbour might be not inspired by it. It makes no sense to use words like "proper bulerias" or "right" or "vibe", as they depend on feel. IMO.

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 26 2011 11:59:09

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Javier Conde Bulerias!! (in reply to Ron.M)

This is a speciality of Ron.

Whenever a video is posted from someone, he posts a video from someone else and says that THIS is the REAL thing.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 26 2011 12:01:02

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Javier Conde Bulerias!! (in reply to Arash)

quote:

and says that THIS is the REAL thing.

That's 'cos they are all the real thing.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 26 2011 12:04:47

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Javier Conde Bulerias!! (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M

quote:

and says that THIS is the REAL thing.

That's 'cos they are all the real thing.

You mean they WERE, 200 years ago

im just joking of course... taste are different and there is good and bad trad and good and bad modern flamenco.

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 26 2011 12:06:04

aleksi

Posts: 528
Joined: Nov. 10 2008
From: Helsinki, Finland

RE: Javier Conde Bulerias!! (in reply to XXX)

sounds solid to me. Very buleria. The rhytm and the vibe is there, basic buleria stuff stirred in a personal way. Well not basic at all, but I can hear clearly the traditional stuff under.
Ron I think I understand why you have your preferences...after mid 90' there hasnt come any good hip-hop, its dead and the new stuff is just a bad joke. I think Im getting old and Im only 31! Nothing touches any more like it used to. Its the age man

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 26 2011 13:30:40

sean65

Posts: 414
Joined: Jan. 4 2010
From: London

RE: Javier Conde Bulerias!! (in reply to XXX)

quote:

Looks like youre teaching him...
And then you can also teach him on how to play or what defines a "proper bulerias"!

Dont know if anybody noticed, but it is always the old schoolers that try to impose their tastes on others. I have never seen a "modern video" being posted on a traditional thread just to stir up their tastes... and whats even most strange is that this bulerias is not even modern by any standard!

I'm not teaching anything. Just pointing out that we can talk about Bulerias with the personal insults.

Who are you referring to when you say old schoolers imposing their tastes. I'm not imposing my taste and I'm certainly not 'old school' either. In fact, I'm not quite sure what you're talking about Deniz.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 26 2011 14:32:01

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Javier Conde Bulerias!! (in reply to aleksi)

quote:

Its the age man

I think you're probably right, Aleksi...

OK, what actually happened was this, I was watching that Morao video on YouTube and when it finished, I had a look to see if there was anything new on the Forum.

Xavier's video was the first thing I saw.....and after what I had just heard, it sort of sounded a bit "dead"..a bit of an anti-climax in comparison to the energy that had been going on in that juerga.
So I just posted it on a spur of the moment thing to see what the reaction would be.

I've been listening to Xavier for years now, since he was a kid and he's a terrific player.
I just didn't think that was as good as some of his stuff although others here obviously think that it's a kick-ass, ace Bulerias.

Sound quality etc doesn't really come into it ...you can hear past that IMO...I just found it pretty advanced in technique and lacklustre in drive.

But that's just personal taste I suppose.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 26 2011 15:26:41

Munin

Posts: 595
Joined: Sep. 30 2008
From: Hong Kong

RE: Javier Conde Bulerias!! (in reply to XXX)

The biggest beef I have with oldschool stuff is that most of the recordings are just of terrible quality. It's a shame really. It tires my ears pretty quickly. On the other hand, some stuff from the 60s and 70s sounds really good and you have guitarists with much cleaner technique while still being very puro.

Since yesterday I am in love with this:

Juan's playing on that buleria is just awesome. It's energetic, but still so nuanced, and I love the dry, minimalistic sound.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 26 2011 17:01:21

aleksi

Posts: 528
Joined: Nov. 10 2008
From: Helsinki, Finland

RE: Javier Conde Bulerias!! (in reply to XXX)

quote:

But that's just personal taste I suppose.

nope, its the age

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 26 2011 17:09:40

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Javier Conde Bulerias!! (in reply to sean65)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sean65
In fact, I'm not quite sure what you're talking about Deniz.

Its written everything in my post. Sorry i dont have the time to post more, but just read what i wrote about words like "proper". And my section about old schoolers was a summary of past experiences and not neccessarily and or solely directed to you.

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 26 2011 17:24:39

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Javier Conde Bulerias!! (in reply to aleksi)

quote:

nope, its the age

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 26 2011 17:54:11

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: Javier Conde Bulerias!! (in reply to XXX)

quote:

But THIS is Bulerias IMO!

U got that right... Jucal is one of the best modern bulerias' of all time.

No surprise, you dont see many guitarists attempting to cover that one.

Its insane..

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 26 2011 23:36:58

sean65

Posts: 414
Joined: Jan. 4 2010
From: London

RE: Javier Conde Bulerias!! (in reply to XXX)

quote:

but just read what i wrote about words like "proper". And my section about old schoolers was a summary of past experiences and not neccessarily and or solely directed to you.

No worries man. The word 'proper' is used in a more contemporary way in the UK these days. More 'emphatically jocular" than 'correct or "absolute".

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 27 2011 7:34:47

yohan

Posts: 306
Joined: Feb. 5 2007

RE: Javier Conde Bulerias!! (in reply to ToddK)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ToddK

quote:

But THIS is Bulerias IMO!

U got that right... Jucal is one of the best modern bulerias' of all time.

No surprise, you dont see many guitarists attempting to cover that one.

Its insane..

wow never seen that jucal video before, its indeed insane!
the best thing is that gerardo plays it like its an easy piece.

(nice topic hijack btw

)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 27 2011 8:29:53

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Javier Conde Bulerias!! (in reply to yohan)

Let's remember though that Gerardo has many years of professional playing experience over Javier, who is still only around 22 or so.

(I believe he also attended Gerardo's Sanlucar course as a student?)

So it's not a fair comparison, especially when Javier's video looks like it's just been recorded informally and not in a concert situation.

Let's see what Javier is doing when he's of a similar age to Gerardo in that video!

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 27 2011 9:09:10

stratos13

Posts: 222
Joined: Apr. 11 2005
From: Αθήνα

RE: Javier Conde Bulerias!! (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M

Let's remember though that Gerardo has many years of professional playing experience over Javier, who is still only around 22 or so.
Let's see what Javier is doing when he's of a similar age to Gerardo in that video!

Nice try but you don't save it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 27 2011 12:14:01

stratos13

Posts: 222
Joined: Apr. 11 2005
From: Αθήνα

RE: Javier Conde Bulerias!! (in reply to stratos13)

I actually agree here with Ron.

Javier Conde has perhaps the most advanced technique out there technic-wise.
But that is never enough. And this is a fact. Not just my opinion. See what his position is in flamenco vs say Diego del Morao who has to be about a million years back technique-wise. Yet...

I used to play soccer quite well, and my main advantage had been that i was really fast. So it was quite easy for me to fill the stadium and play well just by running. Then i stopped playing for some 3-4 years and gained 10-15 kgs.
One day i got back to playing and realised that i was slow-not just slower- but completely and literaly slow. In order to do something about it, i tried to use my mind - to see where the ball goes and trying to figure out what happens in the game! I realised then that is also important to think, and that you are wise when you think and can run at the same time.

Hope this makes sence.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 27 2011 12:25:15

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Javier Conde Bulerias!! (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M

Let's remember though that Gerardo has many years of professional playing experience over Javier, who is still only around 22 or so.

(I believe he also attended Gerardo's Sanlucar course as a student?)

So it's not a fair comparison, especially when Javier's video looks like it's just been recorded informally and not in a concert situation.

Let's see what Javier is doing when he's of a similar age to Gerardo in that video!

LOOL... por Javier. You cant blame him for his bad playing and compositions. Its his youth being a handicap for him!

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 27 2011 12:30:02

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Javier Conde Bulerias!! (in reply to stratos13)

quote:

you are wise when you think and can run at the same time.

Like when you're starting to chat up a girl in a pub and her 6' 2", built like a brick sh*t-house boyfriend suddenly appears out of nowhere....

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 27 2011 12:36:39

stratos13

Posts: 222
Joined: Apr. 11 2005
From: Αθήνα

RE: Javier Conde Bulerias!! (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M
Like when you're starting to chat up a girl in a pub and her 6' 2", built like a brick sh*t-house boyfriend suddenly appears out of nowhere....

Then you run thinking "what the hell was i thinking".

But that is not what i meant

The f***ng lenguage barrier!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 27 2011 13:07:09

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Javier Conde Bulerias!! (in reply to stratos13)

quote:

But that is not what i meant

The f***ng lenguage barrier!

No, no, stratos,

I understood exactly what you meant....I was just joking and being stupid.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 27 2011 13:20:53

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3431
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Javier Conde Bulerias!! (in reply to ToddK)

quote:

Ive never heard any flamenco's copying jazz.

Who in particular are you talking about?

Im baffled.

You caused me to think this over a bit. I can't name any flamencos who are actually quoting jazz. But the harmonic procedures of many of the flamencos nuevos have a lot in common with jazz from the late 1940s onward.

Adding 6ths, major 7ths, 9ths, 11ths and so on to basic chord structures was one common innovation in jazz. Chord substitution, like F#7th for C7th was another common procedure. In the early 1950s I wrote a few arrangements for my high school dance band (brass and woodwinds) exploring these procedures. I did my work at the piano.

In fact, many of the innovative jazz players were listening to Stravinsky, Bartok and the like. The classical groups I played in didn't usually get much beyond Brahms, so I identified the "modern" harmony with jazz.

So I glibly mentioned jazz as a source for the harmonic innovations of nuevo flamenco. I could just as well have cited Stravinsky, Bartok, Hindemith, et al. But the flamencos aren't copying extended phrases, at least not that I've heard. Just using similar harmonic procedures.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 27 2011 18:18:44

ddk

Posts: 155
Joined: Jan. 10 2006
From: California

RE: Javier Conde Bulerias!! (in reply to yohan)

Javier looks like he is just filming a practice recording in his bedroom... not something for us to critique as a real performance. He's clearly an awesome player.

BTW, I also love Jucal. Unfortunately in this vid, Gerardo and company are "lip-syncing" to the original recording.

I still love watching it though.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 27 2011 23:31:08

Pgh_flamenco

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: Javier Conde Bulerias!! (in reply to XXX)

Jucal is at the top of the list when it comes to buleria, but is it buleria or cancion por buleria? Just kidding.

IIRC it's in E flat so the tonic chord is played an octave above the rest of the chords in the progression. Gerardo is really clever with this sort of thing. Also, he included a ii, V, I chord progression in Jucal so the influence of jazz in this composition was obvious.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 27 2011 23:59:40

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: Javier Conde Bulerias!! (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)

quote:

IIRC it's in E flat so the tonic chord is played an octave above the rest of the chords in the progression. Gerardo is really clever with this sort of thing. Also, he included a ii, V, I chord progression in Jucal so the influence of jazz in this composition was obvious.

ii, V, I is not exclusive to Jazz, and it didnt start in Jazz either.

11th, 9th, 13th chords are not "Jazz" chords. They are chords like any other chord.
Flamenco uses harmonic minor scale ALOT. If i walked into a Jazz club and the guitarist was using a harmonic minor, i wouldnt say "Hey, he's playing flamenco influenced jazz!!"
The guy has probably never even heard of flamenco. And i doubt Gerardo is a big Freddie Green, or Herb Ellis fan. They just happen to like some of the same chords, but use them in COMPLETELY different context.

So no, Jucal has no connection to Jazz or Jazz harmony.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 28 2011 0:08:51

Guest

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 28 2011 0:20:33

Pgh_flamenco

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: Javier Conde Bulerias!! (in reply to ToddK)

quote:

ii, V, I is not exclusive to Jazz, and it didnt start in Jazz either.

11th, 9th, 13th chords are not "Jazz" chords. They are chords like any other chord.
Flamenco uses harmonic minor scale ALOT. If i walked into a Jazz club and the guitarist was using a harmonic minor, i wouldnt say "Hey, he's playing flamenco influenced jazz!!"
The guy has probably never even heard of flamenco. And i doubt Gerardo is a big Freddie Green, or Herb Ellis fan. They just happen to like some of the same chords, but use them in COMPLETELY different context.

So no, Jucal has no connection to Jazz or Jazz harmony.

It’s not so much chords, but chord voicings that make a chord a jazz chord as opposed to just a 13th chord, etc. It’s the standardization of chords and chord progressions that define a genre. A Latin ii, V, I, for example, sounds quite different from the ii, V, I progression that’s common in the USA.

Were there any instances of the ii, V, I progression in flamenco prior to the influence of jazz decades ago? Would people argue over the differences between old and modern flamenco if influences from other genres of music hadn’t made their way into flamenco? Context isn’t enough to explain away the similarity between the ii, V, I in Jucal and what is found in American jazz. Gerardo didn’t grow up in a vacuum.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 28 2011 3:39:18

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Javier Conde Bulerias!! (in reply to ddk)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ddk

Javier looks like he is just filming a practice recording in his bedroom... not something for us to critique as a real performance.

No i dont think thats the case. He is uploading it on YOuTube so i guess he knows what he does.

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 28 2011 9:40:56