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Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Lucky guitar find in junk shop (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

For who dislikes my contribution, I think he could just skip my posts or engage an ignore function, and leave my readings to those of the members who might be interested enough.


Exactly. I have immense regard from those who attempt to write in another language. I speak good French and reasonable Spanish but writing in either is fraught with pitfalls and a lot of hard work.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 24 2011 11:16:41
 
Adam

Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON

RE: Lucky guitar find in junk shop (in reply to Kate

quote:

Sometimes I mess up badly, but I´m sure grammar and syntax to be not the main culprit.


(no comment)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 24 2011 11:46:19
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Lucky guitar find in junk shop (in reply to Escribano

Rampart,

But I have a comment on you.
How did I find out that you are a conservative?

From life, as well as from not too far from Cambridge.
Satoshi Kanazawa researcher of the London School of Economics and Political Science together with colleagues analyzed a survey with 14.000 US-American youngsters from the years 2001 und 2002.
The survey among other aspects had been about religiousity. The interviewed had been asked to grade themselves as "not religious at all" over "moderately religious" to "very religious". The first group with 103 points had the highest IQ, the last group achieved an average IQ of 97.

Also in the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health youngsters were interviewed for their poitical conviction. Those who described themselves as "very liberal" showed an IQ of 106. Those who classified themselves as "very conservative" only achieved an IQ of 95.
Reported in the "Social Psychology Quarterly".
All for inherent reason.

In how many languages do you communicate?

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 24 2011 12:34:21
 
Adam

Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON

RE: Lucky guitar find in junk shop (in reply to Escribano

Yeah, I think you're taking this way too seriously, Ruphus.

You made a couple of major grammatical flubs (like not conjugating "to be") while saying you don't think your grammar is a problem. That's funny. That's all.

If you wanted a more serious comment, I'd say that while - as Simon says - it's really commendable that you're making a real effort to communicate in a foreign language - a very difficult thing! - reacting angrily to valid criticism and denying that there's a problem is a pretty poor way to progress in a language. Take it from a native English speaker: your posts in this thread have been riddled with grammar errors and errors of word choice. Which is completely fine, I'm sure if I wrote that much in Spanish I'd have even more errors. Obviously you will improve much more quickly by taking note when those errors are pointing out, rather than getting defensive.

Here's a more relevant analogy: trying to have a "poetic voice" and using big words in a foreign language over which you still have somewhat poor control is like a beginning flamenco student trying to play a complicated Tomatito bulería falseta before he can play a clean rasgueo and strum to a basic bulería compás. Poetic language isn't necessarily hard to understand; using big words (often in inappropriate places) and making basic grammatical mistakes is always hard to understand.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 24 2011 13:39:27
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Lucky guitar find in junk shop (in reply to Ruphus

Hi Ruphus,

Like Escribano, I have a lot of respect for folk on this forum who write English as a second language. It can't be easy.
So when I read posts, I'm more interested in what the contributor has to say rather than noting spelling or grammar...(.jeez..my own spelling and grammar is not that great!)

Believe me Ruphus, I was not poking fun at you, but really just trying to point out that it is not necessary to use big or unusual words in ordinary posts and that this style of English has long since vanished.

Even on the fairly "highbrow" TV and Radio discussion programmes you will hear people just using everyday words, unless it is a specific technical term or no other word would do.
This is a big change from even 30-40 years ago, where panel members (especially Arts critics) liked to show off their educational superiority by flaunting their vocabulary.
This helped form a kind of exclusive club which I'm sure they all enjoyed.

The only time you hear that now IMO is usually from the mouths of ex rock-stars who have taken up some particular world issue or humanitarian cause.
Geldof is a good example.


cheers,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 24 2011 14:05:02
 
Adam

Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON

RE: Lucky guitar find in junk shop (in reply to Ron.M

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M
So when I read posts, I'm more interested in what the contributor has to say rather than noting spelling or grammar...(.jeez..my own spelling and grammar is not that great!)


Ahem, Ron, that should be "my own spelling and grammar are not that great."



See, we all do it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 24 2011 14:09:57
 
kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: Lucky guitar find in junk shop (in reply to Kate

quote:

Just wanted to share my wonderful luck, with a big thank you to Pimientito for verifying that I had indeed found a great flamenco guitar for only 68 euros. Harold is mighty pleased with it and it is wonderful to hear him enjoying playing late at night after long days recording other guitarists.


Thats just great!!! Junk shops are great!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 24 2011 14:20:13
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Lucky guitar find in junk shop (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

Rampart,

But I have a comment on you.
How did I find out that you are a conservative?


Your suggestion that Rampart is a conservative by indicating that you think he possesses a lower intelligence is getting just a little too cute for your own good. In my opinion, personal attacks on someone's integrity, intelligence, or political leanings have no place in this forum. In fact, I consider myself a conservative (not a right-winger, but a conservative). You have not only insulted Ramparts (whose political leanings you have no knowledge of whatsoever, and neither do I), but you have insulted me and anyone else who might consider himself a conservative as well. I suggest you tone it down and stick to something you know about, like flamenco.

Bill

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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 24 2011 15:07:31
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Lucky guitar find in junk shop (in reply to Ruphus

IMO there is nothing magical about explaining something ordinary with extraordinary words. At least i dont see a need for that in a public forum, where all and all is about exchanging knowledge (and maybe a bit fun/jokes). Exception being writer's forums or something like that, lol.
Now i dont have any probs with you or your posts, but it seems obvious to me that when even native speakers complain about having a hard time understanding my posts, i would start thinking about the way i write, i guess.

And to add that: yes i complained about your excessive "whereabouts" usage! Nothing to do with you, i just hate that word and it sounds so awkward, no matter where you (and i mean YOU too) place it in a sentence.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 24 2011 15:49:42
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Lucky guitar find in junk shop (in reply to XXX

quote:

IMO there is nothing magical about explaining something ordinary with extraordinary words.


Well said, Deniz..

That's exactly how I feel too.

And I doubt if it impresses anybody much...it just sounds kind poser-ish IMO.

Best just sticking to plain English.

cheers,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 24 2011 16:17:52
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Lucky guitar find in junk shop (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

Your suggestion that Rampart is a conservative by indicating that you think he possesses a lower intelligence is getting just a little too cute for your own good. In my opinion, personal attacks on someone's integrity, intelligence, or political leanings have no place in this forum. In fact, I consider myself a conservative (not a right-winger, but a conservative). You have not only insulted Ramparts (whose political leanings you have no knowledge of whatsoever, and neither do I), but you have insulted me and anyone else who might consider himself a conservative as well. I suggest you tone it down and stick to something you know about, like flamenco.

Bill


Rampart, who now claims that I was "denying that there's a problem" and that "those errors are pointing out" ( which I suppose, meant as errors pointed out to me ) and that I was "trying to be poetic" none of which being true, actually with his ways of taking and stating does indicate to in fact be following bias.

He and others do insinuate that I was writing with aims in appearance, using complicated / extraordinary words on purpose etc., which they might be surprised to note that in fact some people actually use in accordance to their thoughts and vocabularly in mind.
Even when I look up idioms in a dictionary, of the given synomymous I certainly do not chose what I think to be sounding most sophisticated, but the one of which I think to be most fitting or common. ( Obviously at times erring at that.)
Yet, I am making much less use of a dictionary than what you guys imply above.

As I said before, if you guys being more partial with assuming wannabe intentions on my language than actually noticing the contents that I am trying to convey, maybe you got something to work on as well.

What you think that I was busy with, is so little matter of concern to me that I wouldn´t even know how to make that clear.
Very likely you will figure that out over time ( if willing to ). At least I don´t know of a person who after being familiar with me and my world view would had ever been of the opinion that I was intending to pretend in a way, or being in need of doing so.
-

What conservative being is concerned, I probaly hit correctly with Ramparts attitude, which could be meaning a bit of substance with the conncetion made.

It is no random claim that conservative-being means lack of causal, coherent and deconstructive thinking. Its inherent nature only reflecting correspondingly with findings of intelligence.
Disliking the mentioning of such circumstance, you might rethink background and actual aims of that political fraction, which should introduce more change than requests to refraining from scientifical surveys quote.
-

You are invited to pointing out language mistakes to me, whenever you care to.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 24 2011 18:28:46
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Lucky guitar find in junk shop (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruphus
He and others do insinuate that I was writing with aims in appearance, using complicated / extraordinary words on purpose etc., which they might be surprised to note that in fact some people actually use in accordance to their thoughts and vocabularly in mind.


Guessing the meaning of the last sentence is a game of luck for me. Whatever the meaning is, im sure you could have eased the understanding of it by splitting that sentence in 2 or 3. Or is the matter so complicated that only this twisted language reflects the complexity of it?

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Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 24 2011 19:05:31
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Lucky guitar find in junk shop (in reply to XXX

Deniz,

Your are invited to show me how.
Please split that quote up.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 24 2011 19:08:58
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Lucky guitar find in junk shop (in reply to Ruphus

Did you fail to realize that i did not get the meaning of your writing?

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Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 24 2011 19:09:49
 
prd1

 

Posts: 206
Joined: Jul. 11 2007
 

RE: Lucky guitar find in junk shop (in reply to XXX

How on earth did a post claiming such a joyous event of finding a guitar at a bargain price turn into a slagging match like this...

...please stop?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 24 2011 19:15:56
 
Adam

Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON

RE: Lucky guitar find in junk shop (in reply to prd1

quote:

ORIGINAL: prd1

How on earth did a post claiming such a joyous event of finding a guitar at a bargain price turn into a slagging match like this...

...please stop?


Ugh, I agree.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 24 2011 22:37:50
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Lucky guitar find in junk shop (in reply to Escribano

Why?

The discussion that came up through some member´s annoyance about my writing appears like an interesting exchange of view to me. Nothing pesky.
In our harmony-seeking societies people fear dispute as deemed threat to common ground; unaware of that it is in fact being culture of dispute that provides mutuality.
A culture, much too rudimentary contemporarily though.

Me at least found it interesting to read the critical gatherings.
And I have sent the sentence above to nativer speakers, asking whether it ought to be incomprehensive.

A dispute like this only shows how very different association and perception of fellow men can be.

This is not the first time. Actually, quite the same thing at first happened when I joined other music-related boards ( after unpopular hintsights).
A look into my personal messages revealed that most of the private feedback of that time which people sent to encourage me has gone lost, with only a few that have remained.

With your permission and maybe no accusation of me intending show off or pretention, here is how native speakers can view contributions like with my Pidgin scribble:


quote:

You are amazing! I truly wish I could write as well as you, had the ability to convey a thought in such a manner as you, I commend you. It is a rare ability to first have the thoughts, and then the abilty to write them down with such clarity.

Of course you realize that whatever you say will be slandered by the majority that it intends to enlighten. That is the "curse" of those who discuss freely with regard to the truth. Especially in our "modern" world with its religious polarity readily apparent. I do hope you will be encouraged to continue to write, because I feel you have a great talent that needs expression. As you mention, we should be more tolerant of those who we disagree with because, oftentimes it is just a different experience expressing itself in a way which we don't understand. And especially if it somehow threatens us with change.

Anyhow, I am always intellectually stimulated by your thoughts.


quote:

As always, I find your messages and posts on the forum most interesting. Usually I just stay on the sidelines, listening and watching, especially as my viewpoint seems often enough to be in the minority. Still it is enjoyable and fun to share something with others on occasion. Now if they would just listen!


And one considering this very thread from last night:
quote:

I admire those who post in a language not their own.
Personally I appreciate your vocabulary and creative way with words. I enjoy the odd mistake that can give rise to original turns of phrase.
I guess the problem is that there are also members reading the posts for whom English is not their first language. I speak English so it's easy for me, words aren't 'complicated' or 'sophisticated' if you know what they mean.
Please keep posting!


At times incredible that everyone sees the same planet, innit.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 25 2011 12:54:12
 
bursche

Posts: 1182
Joined: Jul. 19 2007
From: Frankfurt, Germany

RE: Lucky guitar find in junk shop (in reply to Ruphus

A gitano, given the choice between 1: "I regard Ruphus's posts as well arranged and comprehensible."
until 5: "Just keep it short and simple!",
will probably ask the supervisor: ¿Quéé??? iCabróóóón!!!

No offence, but I really ask myself how much more sophisticated your language will become as soon as you start to write in German.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 25 2011 13:40:46
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Lucky guitar find in junk shop (in reply to bursche

quote:

ORIGINAL: bursche
No offence, but I really ask myself how much more sophisticated your language will become as soon as you start to write in German.


Well hopefully he makes less mistakes in german

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Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 25 2011 13:54:47
 
bursche

Posts: 1182
Joined: Jul. 19 2007
From: Frankfurt, Germany

RE: Lucky guitar find in junk shop (in reply to XXX

"Die Sprache der Dichter und Denker", wie man nun einmal sagt (oder besser noch, zu sagen pflegt!).

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 25 2011 14:23:13
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Lucky guitar find in junk shop (in reply to bursche

IMO
"... wie man nun einmal sagt (oder besser noch, zu sagen pflegte!)."

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Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 25 2011 14:24:14
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Lucky guitar find in junk shop (in reply to XXX

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deniz

Well hopefully he makes less mistakes in german


Do you like bets, Deniz? Like to cash in a bit?

Here is my challenge to you:
You fly over to here for a one week stay on my expense.
Than you write an essay on a topic to yet be determed by the two of us. I will be writing one as well, and then we send our works to three germanistics and bookworms for them to judge.
The one who loses the bet will have to pay an amount to be agreed on beforehand, between five- and tenthousand €.
And if the loser be you, you will have to refund the complete expenses to me on top of it.

Besides, you are far overstimating your English skills that you feel so intensely warranted to pick on mine.
Incredibly couraged for a guy who hasn´t even yet gotten to writing a sentence with independent and subordinate clauses, don´t you think?

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 25 2011 14:27:36
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Lucky guitar find in junk shop (in reply to Ruphus

Could you please explain me first the meaning of the sentence in question i quoted above from you? The last clause of this ...

"He and others do insinuate that I was writing with aims in appearance, using complicated / extraordinary words on purpose etc., which they might be surprised to note that in fact some people actually use in accordance to their thoughts and vocabularly in mind."

I dont think i have ever mentioned anything about my "english skills", but i generally get positive feedback about my german and english. It also helped being raised bilingual and having had the education of 8 years of latin in school (besides english).

quote:

Than you write an essay on a topic to yet be determed by the two of us

You have not even understood what i meant with "explaining ordinary things with extraordinary words". I will try a last time: unless language is your aim, its the content that matters.

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Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 25 2011 14:38:25
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Lucky guitar find in junk shop (in reply to XXX

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 25 2011 14:46:54
 
Adam

Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON

RE: Lucky guitar find in junk shop (in reply to XXX

Deniz, I'm pretty sure he meant that some people think he uses big words on purpose to try to sound sophisticated, but in fact he uses words like "methexis" as part of his natural way of expressing what's on his mind. You're right that it's particularly not well-expressed and has some grammatical errors but it's possible to glean the intended meaning out of it.

Now, seriously, we get it. A lot of people think Ruphus is difficult to understand, and Ruphus disagrees. Neither of these things seem likely to change any time soon. So do we really need more posts going over this?

Ron, thanks for picking up the mood You'd be surprised how many of my lectures actually sound like that
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 25 2011 14:50:41
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Lucky guitar find in junk shop (in reply to XXX

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deniz

I dont think i have ever mentioned anything about my "english skills", blahblah



Yet you feel so warranted that you should take stance on something that should be left to native speakers, don´t you.
What about the bet?

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 25 2011 14:52:43
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Lucky guitar find in junk shop (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruphus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deniz

I dont think i have ever mentioned anything about my "english skills", blahblah



Yet you feel so warranted that you should take stance on something that should be left to native speakers, don´t you.


Not even close. I just wanted to explain my background. I am open for anybody correcting errors in my posts, as im one of those rare people who can take criticism.
The bet is funny and IMO shows that you havent understood anything. Since this begins to be time consuming for me i will stop here.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 25 2011 15:04:12
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: Lucky guitar find in junk shop (in reply to Escribano

Please dont delete the thread till tonight when I am back home. I wanna buy some popcorn...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 25 2011 15:28:07
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Lucky guitar find in junk shop (in reply to Adam

quote:

ORIGINAL: ramparts

A lot of people think Ruphus is difficult to understand, and Ruphus disagrees.


That doesn´t do it justice.
I am aware of that much of my writing isn´t exactly easily digestible, specially when there adds bad grammar to it.
However, I am adressing to people for whom contents are relevant in the first place. Secondly, as I just felt again yesterday while reading of a work on linguistics, I appreciate semantically demanding writings.
I even enjoy when a passage makes me halt and repeat, and I love books and articles which I essentially read three or four times while going through.

And as one tends to basically convey the way things take shape in his head, that is how I did even before there was too much notion of other people´s works; with some teachers trying to split my essays into nice little boulevard units, until they couldn´t justify splitting anymore for integral stylistic reasons.

Sure, would I prefer to write English post in perfect grammar, but the times after my business English degree and five months in the US, with me reading the Financial Times and New Yorkers after a while unwilling to believe that I was from abroad, are clearly being over long since.

My motivation with posting here is the exchange of thoughts and info with fellow guitar enthusiasts.
Who wants to take of the contents shall be my guest, who won´t shall put me on his ignore list.

And who thinks to have valuable hints on typical language mistakes made by me mustn´t hesitate, whereas who might actually be feeling aggravated by contents in the first place should maybe profess accordingly.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 25 2011 15:29:32
 
daverod

 

Posts: 10
Joined: Feb. 19 2008
 

RE: Lucky guitar find in junk shop (in reply to Escribano

Man, this thread has become a bummer. I keep checking back to see if there's been any new discussion relevant to the subject, but I suppose I'll stop now.

I wish the forum software had a mute button, like Gmail.

sigh.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 25 2011 15:55:51
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