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RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE?
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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 RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to Ron.M)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DoctorX2k2
Ruphus,
Nobody said that if you didn't train your speed while young you'd never be fast. You have to accept that you would have probably been even faster if you did. Speed remains trainable over a lifetime, it's just not as easy to do. There are many factors involved in speed, not just neural factors which are relatively set by the age of 16.
Hello Doc,
... Like proportion of red and white muscle fibres, and length wise cell amount, correct?
Seeing my personal performance of action and reaction in martial arts without dedicated training before in childhood, I was thinking that general agility might suffice as preparation in youth. ( At which I used to be simply agile / moving around a lot with climbing trees and buildings or jumping while playing Indian in spare time. Just being a "wild child" as grown-ups used to categorize back then.)
quote:
ORIGINAL: DoctorX2k2
As for Grisha's arm... you misunderstand my point. He obviously doesn't have extraordinary girth, but he obviously can develop a greater power relatively to his muscle cross-section (Watts/cm^2) than most, if any, of us.
Agreed. I wasn´t addressing you, but comments before, which were adoring Grisha´s lower arms shape as if it was Megan Fox in the sauna.
What the performance is concerned, I can´t close my hand remotely that fast and certainly couldn´t even in the past. I guess the warm up exercises he suggested to us to be a very supportive thing to do for enhancing finger speed by addressing lower arms muscles directly.
Ruphus
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Date Jan. 8 2011 10:00:21
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DoctorX2k2
Posts: 211
Joined: Jun. 14 2006
From: Quebec City, Canada
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RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to Ruphus)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ruphus
Hello Doc,
... Like proportion of red and white muscle fibres, and length wise cell amount, correct?
Seeing my personal performance of action and reaction in martial arts without dedicated training before in childhood, I was thinking that general agility might suffice as preparation in youth. ( At which I used to be simply agile / moving around a lot with climbing trees and buildings or jumping while playing Indian in spare time. Just being a "wild child" as grown-ups used to categorize back then.)
Ruphus
Hi Ruphus,
The factors contributing to speed are :
1- Factors under the control of the central nervous system (CNS). These are receptors excitation, influx transmission, response elaboration and output to the effectors.
2- Neuromuscular factors (junction between the command system (CNS) and the effectors, the muscles). These are the initiation of the potential at the motor plate, synchronization of motor units, motor units’ frequency of activation, coordination of synergic muscles, and inhibitory activity of antagonists.
3- Muscular factors: quality of Motor Units, muscular elasticity and contraction power. The factors are the fast twitch fibers proportions, usage of ATP-PCr, quality of the contraction-relaxation couple and quality of the stretch-fire cycle.
4- Energetic factors: ATP-PCr pool and resistance to lower pH
5- Morphologic factors.
As a youth, general preparation does suffice... for general activities. Kids SHOULD vary the activities they take part in to develop every motor skills possible. But specificity is the key here. If you want to run faster, you need to work on specific technique. The same should apply to picados. As a kid, I was like you... a great Ritalin candidate  . I used to participate in 3 sports at a time (hockey, baseball and basketball) and it helped me develop skills to play just about any other sport at a good performance level, but never to the point to be really competitive. I'm in the boat of those who started playing guitar "too late" (at the age of 21). I've been noodling for 4 years, mainly because I rarely have time to practice and I lack the discipline to stay on a rigorous regimen. My picado is probably one of the slowest here but I know I can work it up a little and I will, although it would have been much easier if I had started playing at 10.
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Date Jan. 8 2011 17:26:02
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to Ron.M)
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Hi Doc,
Thank you for the literate background.
Yet, as you might admit, midst the general facts, sits your personal opinion on the specific question of age and potential, linear to common sense.
Without denying that early training shows to be most efficient, seeing practical life I claim that options can be superceeding common expectations on principle. And that stereotypes will be revisited in the near future through overlooked empirics.
My claim is that as far as neurological facility has been built up through general agility, individuals can still achieve top performance whether with physical or mental execution, despite undisputedly higher expenditure in training units needed.
I further claim that another reason for less success with late starters to be laying in the fact of them being either in or near to adult life commercially, hence due to working for income and with that at less spare time to practice than in childhood.
As contrary example of common estimation, I am thinking of my own vitae. With precondition as just hyperactive kangaroo, yours truely started martial arts at age of 23, yet remained among first talents throughouts the years in the schools and budo disciplines attented.
Then we have Rudolf Nurejew, who started out ballet dancing with 17.
Or pianists who started rehearsing seriously yet relatively late. Like Murray Perahia, or Arcadi Volodos who both began intensive studying in the age of 15.
Johann Sebastian Bach is being said to have dedicated himself to cembalo and piano yet at the age of 21.
Ingolf Wunder being another one who started out realitevely late. And Atsuko Seta, another very respected pianist started seriously practising yet at over 40 years.
On the other hand you have all those Korean kids whose upcoming parents sat them before the piano with strict schedules and curriculum at much too early age, yet turned out robotic choppers with about zero musical touch.
While less efficient / taking more rehearsal time, an individual can achieve virtuousity, highly demanding body work and / or high creativity yet after childhood, if only he didn´t retard through lethargic life style, especially in the age from 0-6 years, when the vast of basic synaptic structure is being built up.
And naturally ..., provided there exists passion to start with and keep up the stamina.
-
If you are interested in answering and have the experience, there are still some special questions for you about muscular whereabouts in my post above.
Thank you!
Ruphus
PS:
The more advance in brain research the more it turns out that unlike formerly stated, neurons can rebuild and restructure. According to latest info, such happening even on a daily basis!
- Probably the reason why I and a couple more musicians seem to manage gradually overcoming focal dystonia. A deasease originally considered incurable.
Seems one can always introduce new routines, notwithstanding higher efforts with age.
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Date Jan. 9 2011 13:49:23
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mrMagenta
Posts: 942
Joined: Oct. 25 2006
From: Sweden
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RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to Ron.M)
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Proportions of different muscle fibers count for specifics like maximum speed potential. In my opinion greatly overshadowed by the demands of adapting and maintaining good technique: patience, motivation and time (and a good teacher).
Yet, as pointed out, even great technique can be rendered useless if not paired with musical sensibilities. One also has to keep being interested and curious for a long time. Zoomed out like this, isn't it probable that a significant amount of late starters use this idea of a 'best before'-date as a cop out when things get difficult? I agree there is a handicap, but in my view it is mostly external, as in unequal opportunities and expectations.
I know a lot of people who've gone bitter and turn their disappointments toward others: "listen, it's not worth it, you're too old, you shouldn't be going after these kinds of daydreams."
This is a very common mediterranean lower class attitude. Coupled with the Swedish unspoken law: The Jante Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jante_Law) these things can become seriously inhibiting. I've been hearing these things since I was 13 and have nearly become indoctrinated myself.
I do however believe the brain is plastic enough for a lot of great things if one doesn't make it a habit to use these types of cop outs: 'I'm too old to learn computers, too old to learn a new language, too old to learn how to play a musical instrument, to old to learn how to read a score' etc etc..
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Date Jan. 9 2011 15:31:04
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to Ron.M)
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Mr. Magenta,
I think to understand what you describe. People like to stay with stereotypes and oppose whatever refutes them, secondly there is the strong phenomenon of envy. So, what folks discount for themselves one shall not achieve either.
Then again, it was a Swedish company ( if I recall that right ) that was reported on years ago for successfully taking advantage of the experience of elderly employees. Something meanwhile progressing internationally, but at that time the example of that Swedish company was colported as unique in Europe.
Hi Doc,
My personal example had to do with speed as well, but never mind. I don´t dispute your quote, instead think of what can be gained still without special preparation but just vital youth. With the impression that the latter was being underestimated.
ToddK,
Since me attended this forum I have seen you contributing nothing but hollow bubbles and fawn.
If people don´t tell you to shut up finally, you could at least let fellow members alone who like to exchange actual contents.
Your slow head is nobodys resposnibility but your own. So, if it annoys you to see people pondering, instead of blurbing in-between you could develop new habits and have informational reads from time to time.
There exist educating books, magazines and papers out there, and apparently you are being literate in the same time, hence could try reading.
As been said above: It´s never too late.
- And much more rewarding than the gap of either truckling or permanently trying to sabotage others whilst having nothing substantial to say.
With simple minds like you, reluctant to expand, but rather fond and loudmouthed, I always wonder how they manage to have an income and feed themselves.
Seriously.
Ruphus
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Date Jan. 10 2011 10:25:04
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orsonw
Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London
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RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to CarloJuan)
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Please look away now if you're not interested in research regarding age and picado technique learning potential, I only post for those that may be.
The bad news
"These findings support the idea that there may be a sensitive period in childhood where enriched motor training through musical practice results in long-lasting benefits for performance later in life" (Watanabe et al 2007)
"music making (e.g., learning to sing or to play a musical instrument) is an activity that is typically started early in life, while the brain is most sensitive to plastic changes."(Wan & Schlaug 2010)
The good news
"Traditionally, the brain was thought to be hardwired following a critical period in development. However, it is now accepted that the brain has a remarkable capacity to modify its structural and functional organization throughout the life span." (Wan & Schlaug 2010)
"training-induced plasticity is not restricted to the developing brain" (Maguire et al 2000)
"Although no research in the music domain has directly investigated structural plasticity in the healthy adult brain, recent studies have reported functional changes in the brain following relatively short-term musical training in adulthood." (Wan & Schlaug 2010)
Orson's personal conclusion
Whatever age, get off the foro and get back to the guitar!
References
Catherine Y. Wan and Gottfried Schlaug (2010) Music making as a tool for promoting brain plasticity across the life span. Neuroscientist. 2010 October; 16(5): 566–577.
Watanabe D, Savion-Lemieux T, Penhune VB.(2007)The effect of early musical training on adult motor performance: evidence for a sensitive period in motor learning. Exp Brain Res. 2007 Jan;176(2):332-40.
Maguire EA, Gadian DG, Johnsrude IS, Good CD, Ashburner J, Frackowiak RS, Frith CD. (2000)
Navigation-related structural change in the hippocampi of taxi drivers. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2000 Apr 11;97(8):4398-403.
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Date Jan. 10 2011 16:29:30
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
Just reading about this stuff has given me a thumb spasm!!!
Hey, me too Ricardo...I feel queasy reading all this mumbo-jumbo, and feel sick at all the medical diagrams etc.
I'm just happy to be in blissful ignorance of all that stuff.
(Like, I'm happy that my heart is still working, but when I saw a live ultrascan of it jumping up and down in my chest at the Hospital it made me feel sick and faint.. )
If I had been interested in that stuff, I would have studied Medicine.
And if I had a golden opportunity at 9 years of age or something, that I missed....well... I really don't wanna know about that **** at 61.
Does my head no good at all, personally speaking.
Would rather concentrate on Morao's soniquete or suchlike, or trying to get something right......
cheers,
Ron
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Date Jan. 10 2011 18:39:56
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to Ron.M)
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You, Ricardo and Ron, have described how you fear to be thrown off through imagination of neural and physical execution particulars.
Vicarious fear that can be understood; eventhough only superficial perception could be detrimental, while letting oneself into thelike whereabouts should only be constructive if anything.
After all, off-putting phenomenons like awkward technique and resulting imprints like focal dystonia do not come about through knowledge, but in the opposite through misleading pictures in mind of how to do.
You count to the lucky fraction of players who conquered the field of guitar playing without exhausting and detrimental detours, and don´t want to be bothered with pestilent images of dysfuntional playing symptoms. Just as if it was about neglectable occurences.
Even keeping personal disgust as priority in perspective, yet after having brought to notice that the majority of players community are being effected and hindered through pretty much backgrounds aimed at in this thread.
An attitude as if there was uglyness needlessly brought into your sight, related to still merely exceptional cases.
The point however is not to tease those with horrible images who feel alright with what they have, but trying to illuminate some cornerstones for the host of people who feel that they could be doing better and faster ( not only in bpm, but specially in time needed for reaching goals ).
And possibly end a couple of misleading premisses like: "To each his individual technique", which are to be heard in the community every other time, as if there were countless variations of efficient playing technique.
But the reason for so little of seamless playing and so much of laborious execution and stagnation despite intensive rehearsal is that in fact there are not `many ways to Rom´.
Instead efficient approach is being a rather restricted one in terms of posture, planting, engagement of limbs, paragon in mind etc., with only minor eventual deviation due to individually differing properties like morphologically.
There do exist circumstances like optimal ( without counter production or detouring ) preconditions, and everyone should welcome forthcoming and spreading of related information, as shortening and healthy conveyance.
Including those who feel no need for themselves, but should naturally be open minded for the sake of fellow players.
-
For me, whom it took decades to troublesome find out step by step, I would had embraced in a way without words, if functional details like made available or linked to in this thread had only been brought to me in the past.
From my experience with showing fellow players thelike particulars, and the gratefulness they displayed afterwards, be assured that what was appearing odious to you within this topic has been and will be of immeasurable value to others.
Ruphus
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Date Jan. 11 2011 11:02:12
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Ricardo
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to Ruphus)
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quote:
From my experience with showing fellow players thelike particulars, and the gratefulness they displayed afterwards, be assured that what was appearing odious to you within this topic has been and will be of immeasurable value to others.
I am glad you are keeping optimistic. The reason it gave me a "virtigo" type feeling is not just what discussed here, but links to and descriptions of FD, which is more what you have been "worried" about here then picado speed it seems, so a bit off topic. Anyway, what i read is this is a neurological problem, not a physical or mental "stage fright" one. Some chimps seemed to even develop it because they were given specialized skills with the hands. The map in the brain is the problem. All kinds of musicians get this, not just guitar players. That means ANY technique you have has potential for this problem. So rebuilding technique and such, well, it can be a moot point if you have this problem it reads to me. Yikes. Sorry, if what I read is true, no one is safe. Just lucky ones and not lucky ones.
Anyway, my hand feels relaxed again so no harm done. Also a winter storm is on the way, and that always gives me some weird feeling in hands, arms, head, back or legs.
About the age thing, my feeling was always as stated, it has to do with speed potential not overall playing ability. So many great players don't have the speed of PDL and others, it is not the end of the world is my point all along. There are clever ways of maximizing your potential, DESPITE what your physical speed limits are. yada yada yada
ok peace
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Jan. 11 2011 16:08:00
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)
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Peace, Ricardo!
quote:
ORIGINAL: Pgh_flamenco
quote:
The map in the brain is the problem.
Well put and most likely the real problem when it comes to FD...
While I am all for the relevance of that brain action map regarding vast of whatsoever phenomenons ( good and bad ), out of all in sight of FD it seems not to be the case primarily.
FD seems to come about when neuronal firing being excessive due to wrong execution like conflicting protagonist and antagonists, which again the performer is trying to overcome by trying to force through ( instead of realizing dsyfunctional / straining practice and taking measures against wrong execution ). Excessive triggering without muscular translation.
The brain map has to do with this beforehand, in so far that the performer is imagening an unsuitable picture in mind of how to execute, engaging muscles groups in a conflicting way ( contracting extensors and flexors of the same apparatus simultaneously ).
In general however, the "brain map" causa is being spot on, in regard of almost every action.
Modern didactics should know that success is all about correct imagination before actual action.
This insight also being behind todays mental training of for instance top athletes. Those are being trained to invision the action beforehand as detailed as possible.
F1 pilots for instance drive through the course in mind, and such precisely at that that they reach the envisioned finish in mind, accurately down to milli seconds of the real thing.
From there, I believe that in the future proficiency like learning an instrument should become considerably different and more efficiently from today.
Aside of possible physical methods like eventual transfers of informative bearers, or mechanical tools etc., which shall remain unconsidered here, projectionist means of imagination will advance considerably, showing great effect on learners.
As a not so much analog but plastic example, it has turned out that individuals who play computer racing games will improve at the real wheel in the same time.
Just saying ...
Thanks for the nice discussion; and yeah: Peace! :O)
Ruphus
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Date Jan. 11 2011 21:39:03
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