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RE: 640 mm scale length guitar   You are logged in as Guest
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mark indigo

 

Posts: 3324
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: 640 mm scale length guitar (in reply to rombsix

quote:

I've been playing guitar (classical, flamenco, and other fiddly bits) for NINE (9) years now. I think by now, I should have DEVELOPED enough stretch / strength to allow me to play nearly ANYTHING I should want to play (let alone a "silly" F add9 chord). Is that a correct assumption on my part, or do you think I've been going through these past nine years doing something wrong, or avoiding to properly exercise my left hand correctly to develop actual FULL strength / stretch?


I know my post was a bit long, and the important bit was near the end, but I repeat, you probably already had enough strength to play the guitar before you ever started to play, it's not a question of strength, but of how you use/direct/co-ordinate the strength you already have.

I had been playing guitar for 10 years before I got into flamenco (electric and steel acoustic, no classical), and I have been playing flamenco for about 18 years now. I am still progressing, still working on things, still refining technique etc.

The cruel irony is that when you try hard at something, when you put more effort in, you usually increase muscle contraction (like if you want to lift something heavy you need more muscle power), but with things like playing an instrument, and especially stretches, you often need to use less muscle power/strength. You are probably contracting muscles in your hands to "make" the stretch which are limiting your ability to stretch, and the harder you try the tighter your hands get.

Same thing with bars, I used to struggle with bars, and press harder and harder to try to get the notes clean. But all I was doing was making my finger really stiff and getting nowhere. When I relaxed my finger and just laid it on the strings I got better results. Same thing with stretches, you musn't force them. You need to make the stretch mentally and just allow your fingers to follow.

What caused that cyst? probably unnecessary muscle tension in the first place, please get it sorted out via a doctor/osteopath/massage therapist and learn how to relax your hands more.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2010 17:04:18
 
rombsix

Posts: 7607
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: 640 mm scale length guitar (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

You need to make the stretch mentally and just allow your fingers to follow.


That seems like a long-term commitment... I'll try to work on that.

quote:

What caused that cyst? probably unnecessary muscle tension in the first place, please get it sorted out via a doctor/osteopath/massage therapist


There are no studies to show a direct causal relationship between playing guitar and the cyst forming. It needs surgery to be "cured," but I don't know if I want to do that NOW.

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Ramzi

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2010 19:27:51
 
Grisha

 

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Joined: Mar. 17 2005
 

RE: 640 mm scale length guitar (in reply to mark indigo

Ramzi, don't get a smaller guitar. Instead, stretch your hands for 30 min to one hour every day and you'll see a huge difference in only a couple of weeks.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2010 19:55:48
 
rombsix

Posts: 7607
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: 640 mm scale length guitar (in reply to Grisha

quote:

Ramzi, don't get a smaller guitar. Instead, stretch your hands for 30 min to one hour every day and you'll see a huge difference in only a couple of weeks.


Wow! Thank you, Grisha, for your input! It means TONS coming from a great like you. I'll start doing that, and see how it goes. Will keep you all updated.



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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2010 20:09:19
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: 640 mm scale length guitar (in reply to rombsix

quote:

ORIGINAL: rombsix
Will keep you all updated.


Please do so. Id be seriously interested.
See you in a couple of weeks...

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Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2010 20:22:39
 
Grisha

 

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RE: 640 mm scale length guitar (in reply to mark indigo

You are welcome. I will post a video on YouTube about stretching. I want to ultimately record some instructional videos that I can sell for a few bucks, but for foro members I'll do this one for free.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2010 20:44:19
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3324
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: 640 mm scale length guitar (in reply to rombsix

quote:

There are no studies to show a direct causal relationship between playing guitar and the cyst forming. It needs surgery to be "cured," but I don't know if I want to do that NOW.


I don't know a great deal about the specifics of cysts (though I do know a fair amount about general movement principles), but a quick search came up with this;

quote:

Cysts can arise through a variety of processes in the body, including

•"wear and tear" or simple obstructions to the flow of fluid,


there are a bunch of other causes listed, mostly more serious and probably not relevant in your case (source: medicine.net). There may be no studies to link guitar playing with cysts, but "wear and tear"?? And if your hands are a little more stiff than they need to be you will up the level of "wear and tear" - in fact a lot of "wear and tear" is caused by unnecessary muscle tension (because when opposing sets of muscles are simultaneously contracted it puts increased pressure on the joints themselves).

further down the page it says;

quote:

There are hundreds of types of cysts that can arise in the body. Some of the more well-known types of cysts are

[list of types, including:]

•ganglion cysts of the joints and tendons,


and following the link to ganglions it says;

quote:

What is a ganglion?

A ganglion is a sac-like swelling or cyst formed from the tissue that lines a joint or tendon. The tissue, called synovium, normally functions to produce lubricating fluid for these areas. A ganglion is a cyst formed by the synovium that is filled with a thick jelly-like fluid. While ganglia can follow local trauma to the tendon or joint, they usually form for unknown reasons.


Basically, if you repeatedly over-contract the appropriate (ie. necessary) muscles and/or contract inappropriate (ie. unnecessary) muscles (which means the appropriate/necessary ones have to work even harder to perform the desired movement) then the cumulative effect of this can build up to "local trauma to the tendon or joint".

You also might be able to shift the cyst through massage, but you need to address the underlying cause of it anyway.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2010 21:02:19
 
rombsix

Posts: 7607
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: 640 mm scale length guitar (in reply to mark indigo

Mark, I appreciate your help. Thanks a ton!

The standpoint I am coming from is evidence-based medicine. There have been no clinical trials to directly determine a causal or effect-based relationship between ganglions (synovial cysts) and joint over-use / wear and tear. This is just one of those gray zones in medicine that has not been overly investigated. Treating such conditions is more interesting to medicine rather than their cause (considering they are benign). About treatment, surgical removal is the method with the lowest recurrence rate. Arthroscopic approaches are gaining high popularity regarding their success rates being the highest (i.e. with lowest risk of recurrence post-removal), and their recovery times being the shortest.



And Grisha: You're too kind. If such videos get released soon, I'll be your first customer. And about the free video for foro members: Olé!

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2010 21:08:32
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3324
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: 640 mm scale length guitar (in reply to rombsix

quote:

The standpoint I am coming from is evidence-based medicine.


where i am coming from is anatomically and physiologically sound movement principles.

quote:

This is just one of those gray zones in medicine that has not been overly investigated.


gravity still existed before Newton....
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2010 21:58:35
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: 640 mm scale length guitar (in reply to mark indigo

ok, my hand.


It was an error when I wrote that 650/50 was factory standard. It should have been 650/52
I still think you should stay with something standard. Maybe with a slimmer neck. around 20mm at the headstock. and ask the builder to make an extra nut with a 41mm string spacing so that you can try that.
Also, slightly higher frets makes fretting easyer.



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2010 16:50:59
 
rombsix

Posts: 7607
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: 640 mm scale length guitar (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

Maybe with a slimmer neck. around 20mm at the headstock. and ask the builder to make an extra nut with a 41mm string spacing so that you can try that.


What is the standard neck thickness at the headstock, if you're saying that 20 mm is considered "slimmer?"

I guess you meant an extra nut with a 51 (not 41) mm string spacing, right? Also, how can I "try different nuts?" Is the nut removable?

Man, you're hand looks scary! By the way, I tried doing some stretching exercises today, and I noticed that my fingers have WAY much more room to spread apart than I can do so by just opening them up naturally. When I used my other hand to stretch the fingers open beyond the span I can normally open them to, I was amazed at how much more reach I can probably gain if I were to do these stretches daily (and if they actually worked in giving me the ability to naturally spread my fingers apart more than I can at this moment).

However, Grisha's saying that I need to stretch for 30 minutes to 1 hour daily seems excessive! I barely have enough time to pick up the guitar and fiddle around for a couple of minutes every few DAYS now (because of excessive work / studies), let alone stretch daily for that long a time!?

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2010 17:37:09
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: 640 mm scale length guitar (in reply to mark indigo

I actually meant 41mm. On a 52mm nut, 43mm is more or less standard. Yes, the nut can be removed and replaced quite easily. Slacken the strings and dig out the thing.
22 -23mm thickness at the headstock is pretty standard. 20mm is the thinnest that I would build.
You can strech when waiting for the bus, watching the telly or whatever.

Of course, my hand is scary. I´m a scary person.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2010 18:39:44
 
Grisha

 

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RE: 640 mm scale length guitar (in reply to mark indigo

Ramzi, stretch while you do other things, like reading. Video coming soon, after I get back from LA.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2010 16:13:50
 
rombsix

Posts: 7607
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: 640 mm scale length guitar (in reply to Grisha

Gracias for the input, Anders and Grisha.

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2010 16:27:15
 
Adam

Posts: 1155
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Philadelphia

RE: 640 mm scale length guitar (in reply to Grisha

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grisha

Ramzi, stretch while you do other things, like reading. Video coming soon, after I get back from LA.


Four things, now that I've discovered this thread:

1) Did this video ever get posted? I'd like to see it too, I've got the same problem with small-ish hands and tough stretches.
2) Ramzi, how's the hand coming along since these posts?
3) Mark, where's the best place to buy the gitano guitar support in the UK?
4) Am I the only one who found it a bit weird on page 1 that a bunch of guys started taking out rulers and measuring their..... hands?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2011 12:18:47
 
Adam

Posts: 1155
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Philadelphia

RE: 640 mm scale length guitar (in reply to mark indigo

Oh, and on the topic of the gitano support... I'm a bit uncomfortable putting the suction cup on my pretty Bernal, does it scratch the guitar/affect the finish where it's suctioned?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2011 12:20:38
 
rombsix

Posts: 7607
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: 640 mm scale length guitar (in reply to Adam

quote:


1) Did this video ever get posted? I'd like to see it too, I've got the same problem with small-ish hands and tough stretches.
2) Ramzi, how's the hand coming along since these posts?


Grisha has yet to post the video. And I have yet to commit to stretching exercises. I've been super-busy with my master's degree, but now I might have a bit more room to breathe. I'll try to stretch daily for a week or two, and let y'all know. I've been trying to avoid big stretches in general though because my left wrist pain has flared up somewhat with the cold weather here...

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2011 13:14:39
 
yohan

Posts: 306
Joined: Feb. 5 2007
 

RE: 640 mm scale length guitar (in reply to mark indigo

@Grisha
I would be very interested in a pinky stretching video, because I have no idea how to start stretching without dislocating my fingers

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 11 2011 18:59:50
 
rombsix

Posts: 7607
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: 640 mm scale length guitar (in reply to yohan

quote:

I have no idea how to start stretching without dislocating my fingers




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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 11 2011 19:43:54
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 11 2011 23:23:44
 
X

 

Posts: 67
Joined: May 21 2009
 

RE: 640 mm scale length guitar (in reply to mark indigo

Rombsix,

Luthier Mark Berry in Cotati, California, had some smaller scale guitars in stock about a year and a half ago. He called them "pre-tablao guitars," and if I remember right he'll let you try them out and will take them back if you decide not to buy. Might be worth looking into. I think this is his website:

htttp://markberryguitars.com

Good luck.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2011 0:06:03
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