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RE: More thoughts on picado
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Jon Boyes
Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
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 RE: More thoughts on picado (in reply to duende)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: duende
i realise my tension is not in my arm or hand, it´s in my head.
for a few days i have been able to play realxed picados at 150bpm (16th notes)
What happens is that i practice the old picado then after a while my head goes of somewhere
and i´ve noticed that when i forget about what im doing to a certain level my picado flows MUCH easier.
IMO that is a very important observation, Henrik. You ever read the 'Inner Game of Music'? Its basically a whole book about that very point.
Although I think in the early stages of tech. development its important to think about what your fingers are doing and a little analysis is helpful, IMO when you can play at the sort of speeds we are discussing here, improvement comes from letting go. It becomes more a mental game than a physical one.
At slower speeds your mind can track what your fingers are doing, but at higher speeds this becomes impossible and actually a hindrance: the whole thing must become reflexive.
If you try and think too much at these speeds, it interrupts the flow, because the mind can't think fast enough to keep track. Its like "hang on a sec, what fret was that, what comes next?..." too late, fumble time.
This is one of the reasons why playing fast is fundmentally different to playing slow, and why many people will hit a brick wall if they just use the 'start slow and gradually notch up the metronome' approach.
Jon
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Date Feb. 10 2005 8:13:11
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: More thoughts on picado--the gau... (in reply to Patrick)
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Ricardo,
I posted this on the rec classical usenet group--hope you don't mind:
"I have been having a lively discussion about which is more "difficult"--classical or flamenco, over at foroflamenco.com, where a few quite good players post.
My belief is that, if they can be compared at all, classical is more difficult because of the great harmonic density (more information) in the same amount of time, as well as the great variety of technical demands. I am aware, of course, that these are somewhat apples and oranges.
In discussions with great flamenco player Richard Marlow, he claimed that a great flamenco player could learn a classical piece a lot easier than a classical could learn a flamenco "piece." I countered--with the Chaconne. There is so much going on here that a flamenco would find it hard to understand and retain all of that stuff. He said, okay, and got started on the Chaconne! After a few days, he says he has about 3 minutes down, doesn't think it's a problem at all.
So... are there any classical players here that care to take on the challenge? Learn a Sabicas or Vicente Amigo seguriyas, and maybe add a bulerias on top of it, to make it fair (after all the Chaconne is 15 min. or so, and a couple flamenco pieces put together would be less than 10). Record it, and I'll get Richard to record the Chaconne, and the respective parties can share how it went, what challenges they had, how hard it seemed to be...."
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Date Apr. 2 2005 18:15:21
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: More thoughts on picado (in reply to ToddK)
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Well...it's the never ending question IMO.
I remember a Classical guitarist asking me, (though I think he was asking himself), why I enjoyed Flamenco.
He said "Is it because Classical Guitar is so terribly "prissy"?
(His words, not mine)
But, yeah...I suppose I have sentiments that relate to that.
Mind you, there are lots of Classical things I've heard that are brilliant too....
Probably boils down to "are you a conservative or a reb?" LOL!
Me personally, I love the ragged-arsed, sophisticated, sometimes technically unbelievable, yet earthy and low-brow stuff I hear in Flamenco that I just don't hear too many times in Classical.
I think somebody a while ago related it to rock music.
I think an open air concert of Capullo can raise the same kind of audience reaction as Freddy Mercury and Queen, not the same thing obviously, but the same kind of reaction.
I think that's why we, and the flamenco Andalucians are in love with this music.
cheers
Ron
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Date Apr. 2 2005 20:27:12
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gerundino63
Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands
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RE: More thoughts on picado (in reply to Ron.M)
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My frend and teacher, Eric Vaarzon Morel, who is a professional flamenco guitarist, have studied for a long time in Spain in his youth learning flamenco.
After that he came back to Holland, and dit the concervatory classic guitar.
He played with a string quarted the concierto the aranjuez.
very good btw.
So i think it is easyer for a flamenco guitarist to play clasic stuff than visa versa.
He told me also, that it is very difficult to explain to classic scholerd people what a 12/4 measurment is.
Mostly he end up telling them, it is 2x3 and after that 3x2.
The difficult than is, that the music gets a "jump"when you play it like that.
And you miss the flamenco essence.
So, only for the rithm, besides the technique, and, most classic players play from paper, it would be a very hard job to play flamenco.
If you are interested in the guy, here is his webside:
http://www.vaarzonmorel.com/
Also I remember a documentary from Paco Pena explaining a rasq, to John Williams, well....... I do not think John Wiliams is going to start a flamenco carieer......
But i like to finish with saying that it is a very difficult comparison, the music is too different, classic guitar has other things that are difficult than flamenco.
And my own oppinion, and taste, say to me, that the guitar comes to his best right, with flamenco, there is no music that makes the guitar more lyric, orchestral, than flamenco
VIVA EL ARTE!! VIVA EL FLAMENCO!! 
Peter
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Date Apr. 3 2005 0:00:12
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Jim Opfer
Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.
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RE: More thoughts on picado--the gau... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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quote:
So... are there any classical players here that care to take on the challenge?
I don't play any Classical guitar whatsoever, but I do teach flamenco from time to time and have met all level of players over the years.
Right now, I have Andy who is a classical guitar graduate.
Andy wanted to learn flamenco. I said, don't try because it requires a totally different RH and that he would ruin his technique, Andy felt he would be ok and that it would improve his technique, so off we went. Tangos, Solea, Buleria...etc.
I've known Andy now for about 4 months and he's amazing. He got to hear Nunez CD and came back the following week with 'Trafalgar' written out in notation, by ear. Not only transcribing, but playing at Nunez speed! He came back last week with the bones of 3 Vicente solos written out and playing them. One, he thought was is an open tuning because the fingering would be easier! He's doing this in between normal practice for concerts.
Does it sound flamenco? well, sometimes I'm not sure if the original sounds flamenco. Andy has speed, tone and he's developed a slick rachao'. He plays picado with i.a.
Reinforces my belief that there are people whom it deosn't matter what they turn to, they will be naturally gifted.
A bit like people who get a great sun tan. They go out in the sun for 30 minutes with their clothes on and they're tanned all over! How the hell did that happen? I lie on a beach suffering for 2 weeks and I've only got the front done! Back of my legs will always be white.
I'll see if I can get Andy to post some of his playing.
Jim.
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Date Apr. 3 2005 11:58:01
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Ricardo
Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: More thoughts on picado (in reply to Patrick)
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Of course there are going to be exceptions, but I was speaking generally in the other post, about your average advanced player, like a John Williams type guy vs V. Amigo type guy. I saw Gallardo w/ Canizares, and even though he is classical, he has good "compas" and could easily make you think he was a flamenco player. Likewise, Canizares or Riqueni play classical pretty convincingly. Even Paco learned some classical pieces, of course his tone would not be considered great in the classical world. Scott Tennant plays a little Solea in his Pumping Nylon vid, his tone is what gives away that he is not a flamenco. Tone is a big part of both styles, maybe the hardest thing to emulate.
If I finish this Chaconne thing, I would expect to get criticized by the classical guys for the tone, and missing a few notes, but that is all hopefully. I would not expect a Classical player to sound like Sabicas. But he has to play in compas if he is going to learn a flamenco piece like bulerias for example. ALL flamenco players recognize the importance of compas. Trafalgar was mentioned before. I find that piece to be a lot more difficult than the Bach, but the difficulty is more in the compas, maintaning it and expressing it. I have heard quite a few "classical" renditions of that piece when I was in Spain. There are no rasgueados, but there is a flamenco way to play that piece that a classical guy doesn't pick up on. It is a bulerias and that feeling should be there, but it can sound like a waltz. That would be something a little easier for a classical guy to have a go at than something w/ a lot of rasgueados. Likewise I am sure there are much easier classical standards than the Chaconne.
So after learning this Chaconne I want to hear the classical guy play Punta del Faro w/ the compas CD, palmas loop or metronome. Or even Trafalgar since there are no golpes or rasgueado. But I am having fun anyway, I like Bach!
Ricardo
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Date Apr. 3 2005 22:40:35
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