RE: More thoughts on picado (Full Version)

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Patrick -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Feb. 8 2005 21:04:26)

quote:

The more ram i have available,
the faster i can play!!! LOL


TK,

Actually all you need is the "Amazing Slow Downer". It works in reverse as well to speed things up.

With that baby I'm up to 400BPM picado!



duende -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Feb. 10 2005 5:25:33)

i realise my tension is not in my arm or hand, it´s in my head.
for a few days i have been able to play realxed picados at 150bpm (16th notes)
What happens is that i practice the old picado then after a while my head goes of somewhere
and i´ve noticed that when i forget about what im doing to a certain level my picado flows MUCH easier. This just came over me..
it was like. (playing) takatakataka(thinking)..hm..i wonder if im hungry?..hm..do i nead to buy milk?..Hey!! my picado works!??! takataka. This little thing made me realise that i nead to
look at picado as very "light" and "easy". This was a long and confusing post [8|]

Henrik



sorin popovici -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Feb. 10 2005 8:01:35)

I wanna have 220 BPM,will 256MB ram will be enough ?[8|]

I think I got it ...
is not the size that matters (really ! )
...
is the frequency if we're still talking picado . [;)]


is not the tension in your head ...is the takatakataka Henrik.

By the way ,I have this problem I'm faster with longer nails ...
I am more relaxed with longer nails ...and my hand seems to
do less movement.Also my tremolo works better ..i can do
it even on the g string.With shorter nails ..I cant do it.
Why do people are so obsessed with keeping their
nails short ?Does this got to do with hygiene ?



Jon Boyes -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Feb. 10 2005 8:13:11)

quote:

ORIGINAL: duende
i realise my tension is not in my arm or hand, it´s in my head.
for a few days i have been able to play realxed picados at 150bpm (16th notes)
What happens is that i practice the old picado then after a while my head goes of somewhere
and i´ve noticed that when i forget about what im doing to a certain level my picado flows MUCH easier.


IMO that is a very important observation, Henrik. You ever read the 'Inner Game of Music'? Its basically a whole book about that very point.

Although I think in the early stages of tech. development its important to think about what your fingers are doing and a little analysis is helpful, IMO when you can play at the sort of speeds we are discussing here, improvement comes from letting go. It becomes more a mental game than a physical one.

At slower speeds your mind can track what your fingers are doing, but at higher speeds this becomes impossible and actually a hindrance: the whole thing must become reflexive.

If you try and think too much at these speeds, it interrupts the flow, because the mind can't think fast enough to keep track. Its like "hang on a sec, what fret was that, what comes next?..." too late, fumble time.

This is one of the reasons why playing fast is fundmentally different to playing slow, and why many people will hit a brick wall if they just use the 'start slow and gradually notch up the metronome' approach.

Jon



hamia -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Feb. 10 2005 23:58:47)

Not a good idea in my opinion to play with long nails. It may at first seem a good and easier way but in the long run it will hold you back. You will lose accuracy and speed. In fact I suggest you try and play without nails for a while – you will probably identify problems with your technique. When I first started playing guitar I was most concerned about tone and used long nails. My progress was relatively slow (partly because I rarely did any mechanical exercises) and after 5 years I stopped playing. After a gap of nearly 20 years I started playing again and for the past year have been playing without nails – mainly mechanical exercises. I think that my technique has benefited greatly – my picado, arpeggios, and tremolo are now relatively fast and accurate. The tone is not so great of course but this is not important at all when learning technique.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Apr. 1 2005 15:07:47)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Apr. 9 2005 10:14:57



Miguel de Maria -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Apr. 1 2005 15:43:37)

That's a good attitude, ichbintoll... the picado over the whole compas is too hard, best to start with smaller sections, no? Then why did I start out trying to learn picado by playing Panaderos Flamencos? Not a good idea!



duende -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Apr. 1 2005 16:30:22)

theres a small section in "barrios la vina" with one bar picado one bar chord and so on.
Thats very good practice and it´s fun to.

Henrik



Guest -> [Deleted] (Apr. 1 2005 18:46:05)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Apr. 9 2005 10:12:10



rickm -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Apr. 1 2005 19:34:37)

if anyone has a link for the barrios le vina thing pls post or forward or whatever, sounds intruiging. also, my teacher who has a killer picado, keeps stressing with me
staccato staccato staccato etc and has me practice 1, 2 bursts coming off arpeggios, rasquedos etc. his advice to me is go for the evenness of tone and "punch" of the individual strikes and the rest will come. It has helped me tremendously. and I dont know how fact I play it, but he is a killer. so if that helps, ok. his advice also suggests dont practice long passages for speed, kind of like interval training in athletics. seeya



Miguel de Maria -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Apr. 1 2005 22:32:06)

I feel realy silly now, because I have always practiced long scales and passages as long as a compas for my picado... I think what I will do is compose a piece that has a lot of little picado parts, maybe starting with one beat and working up to a whole compas, so that by the final run, each part has been practiced individually and you just have to put it together.



rickm -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Apr. 2 2005 0:32:40)

if i can add to the previous post and further explain, but this might be hard in words,
one thing my teacher has me do is to; lets say picado on the little e string, to strike with the i finger and then immediately placee the m finger so that it stops the sound of the first strike, then strike m and again immediately place the i finger stopping the sound. it is in that idea of placing the next finger and placing it immediatley, while working for evenness of tone. then working up and down the strings in that fashion. onc evennes of tone is developed, then work on 4 strike bursts, and even harder 3 strikes etc. i hope this explains better. as you work up then work it through chord configurations, (right hand) finger placed then open string etc etc. hard to explain in words i know.



Ricardo -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Apr. 2 2005 7:19:50)

Yeah I totally agree w/ gtrr66. Staccato=rhythmic control. The video Pumping Nylon is classical but demonstrates similar ideas. Speed bursts. You can apply this to flamenco and it really helps. You can do this w/ tremolo too, really helps.

Ricardo



Miguel de Maria -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Apr. 2 2005 16:11:19)

Okay, since we're having a picado symposium, maybe you guys have some ideas for my problem. I don't really feel that speed is a problem for me, but the rhythmic control is... but even worse, I think string crossings are a huge problem. By this I mostly mean bringing m up to the higher string, this seems to be my achilles heel.

First of all, I often get hung up doing this, and also it seems that my fingers just sometimes get confused and don't really know what to do at this point! Any ideas?



Ricardo -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Apr. 2 2005 17:08:48)

Gerardo has a good exercise. This is picado, but a little slower obviously. alternate starting w/ i, 8th note or 16th note rhythm. Both easy and awkward crossings are done.

E-----------0---------------------0--------------------0-----------------------2---
B--------1----1----------------0---0---------------1-----1----------------0------
G-----0---------0-----------1---------1---------2----------2-----------2---------
D---2--------------2------2--------------2----2---------------2-----1-------------
A-3--------------------2--------------------0---------------------2-----------------
E--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, just try doing even 3 notes on each string, alternating, moving across the open strings. You get both crossings again. Play 4 notes per beat (16ths) so the 3 notes are synchopated.

Have fun. Back to the Chaccone.

Ricardo



Miguel de Maria -> RE: More thoughts on picado--the gauntlet is down! (Apr. 2 2005 18:15:21)

Ricardo,
I posted this on the rec classical usenet group--hope you don't mind:

"I have been having a lively discussion about which is more "difficult"--classical or flamenco, over at foroflamenco.com, where a few quite good players post.

My belief is that, if they can be compared at all, classical is more difficult because of the great harmonic density (more information) in the same amount of time, as well as the great variety of technical demands. I am aware, of course, that these are somewhat apples and oranges.

In discussions with great flamenco player Richard Marlow, he claimed that a great flamenco player could learn a classical piece a lot easier than a classical could learn a flamenco "piece." I countered--with the Chaconne. There is so much going on here that a flamenco would find it hard to understand and retain all of that stuff. He said, okay, and got started on the Chaconne! After a few days, he says he has about 3 minutes down, doesn't think it's a problem at all.

So... are there any classical players here that care to take on the challenge? Learn a Sabicas or Vicente Amigo seguriyas, and maybe add a bulerias on top of it, to make it fair (after all the Chaconne is 15 min. or so, and a couple flamenco pieces put together would be less than 10). Record it, and I'll get Richard to record the Chaconne, and the respective parties can share how it went, what challenges they had, how hard it seemed to be...."



ToddK -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Apr. 2 2005 19:13:11)

I sincerely believe that you will not find a classical
guitarist that could play a Seguriyas, the way it should be played.
IE, with a true Andalucian flavor, and with authentic flamenco tone.

I'm already a decent flamenco player, and i wouldnt be able to play
a Seguriyas nearly as well as Richard could play the Chaccone.

So i think you've gotten yourself in pretty deep Miguel. [8D]

Its a neet idea, in theory. BTW, im not saying flamenco is harder than
classical.
I'm just saying the the classical guitarist would have to make to many
changes.
For instance, Richard already has the techniques needed to play just
about any classical piece.
As Stanely doesnt have the flamenco techs needed. He would have to spend
many months or more just to get the rasgueados sounding decent.
Much less playing a whole Seg, with the right sound and flavor.

Even with years of preparation, he would never be able to play it
as well as Richard.
TK



Ron.M -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Apr. 2 2005 20:27:12)

Well...it's the never ending question IMO.
I remember a Classical guitarist asking me, (though I think he was asking himself), why I enjoyed Flamenco.
He said "Is it because Classical Guitar is so terribly "prissy"?
(His words, not mine)
But, yeah...I suppose I have sentiments that relate to that.
Mind you, there are lots of Classical things I've heard that are brilliant too....
Probably boils down to "are you a conservative or a reb?" LOL!
Me personally, I love the ragged-arsed, sophisticated, sometimes technically unbelievable, yet earthy and low-brow stuff I hear in Flamenco that I just don't hear too many times in Classical.

I think somebody a while ago related it to rock music.
I think an open air concert of Capullo can raise the same kind of audience reaction as Freddy Mercury and Queen, not the same thing obviously, but the same kind of reaction.
I think that's why we, and the flamenco Andalucians are in love with this music.

cheers

Ron



gerundino63 -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Apr. 3 2005 0:00:12)

My frend and teacher, Eric Vaarzon Morel, who is a professional flamenco guitarist, have studied for a long time in Spain in his youth learning flamenco.

After that he came back to Holland, and dit the concervatory classic guitar.

He played with a string quarted the concierto the aranjuez.

very good btw.

So i think it is easyer for a flamenco guitarist to play clasic stuff than visa versa.

He told me also, that it is very difficult to explain to classic scholerd people what a 12/4 measurment is.
Mostly he end up telling them, it is 2x3 and after that 3x2.
The difficult than is, that the music gets a "jump"when you play it like that.
And you miss the flamenco essence.

So, only for the rithm, besides the technique, and, most classic players play from paper, it would be a very hard job to play flamenco.
If you are interested in the guy, here is his webside:
http://www.vaarzonmorel.com/

Also I remember a documentary from Paco Pena explaining a rasq, to John Williams, well....... I do not think John Wiliams is going to start a flamenco carieer......

But i like to finish with saying that it is a very difficult comparison, the music is too different, classic guitar has other things that are difficult than flamenco.

And my own oppinion, and taste, say to me, that the guitar comes to his best right, with flamenco, there is no music that makes the guitar more lyric, orchestral, than flamenco

VIVA EL ARTE!! VIVA EL FLAMENCO!! [;)]

Peter



Guest -> [Deleted] (Apr. 3 2005 1:21:08)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Apr. 9 2005 10:09:44



duende -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Apr. 3 2005 8:15:20)

Go to the tab section and take a look at steve morse picking exersice.
It´s realy good for picado. String skipping and control. Not so much as a speed exercise.

Henrik



Jim Opfer -> RE: More thoughts on picado--the gauntlet is down! (Apr. 3 2005 11:58:01)

quote:

So... are there any classical players here that care to take on the challenge?


I don't play any Classical guitar whatsoever, but I do teach flamenco from time to time and have met all level of players over the years.

Right now, I have Andy who is a classical guitar graduate.

Andy wanted to learn flamenco. I said, don't try because it requires a totally different RH and that he would ruin his technique, Andy felt he would be ok and that it would improve his technique, so off we went. Tangos, Solea, Buleria...etc.

I've known Andy now for about 4 months and he's amazing. He got to hear Nunez CD and came back the following week with 'Trafalgar' written out in notation, by ear. Not only transcribing, but playing at Nunez speed! He came back last week with the bones of 3 Vicente solos written out and playing them. One, he thought was is an open tuning because the fingering would be easier! He's doing this in between normal practice for concerts.

Does it sound flamenco? well, sometimes I'm not sure if the original sounds flamenco. Andy has speed, tone and he's developed a slick rachao'. He plays picado with i.a.

Reinforces my belief that there are people whom it deosn't matter what they turn to, they will be naturally gifted.

A bit like people who get a great sun tan. They go out in the sun for 30 minutes with their clothes on and they're tanned all over! How the hell did that happen? I lie on a beach suffering for 2 weeks and I've only got the front done! Back of my legs will always be white.

I'll see if I can get Andy to post some of his playing.

Jim.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Apr. 3 2005 16:47:09)

He developed a rasgueado in 4 months? I thought it took a couple years to get a decent sound for those. Did he have prior experience with ras before--many of them do, now.

By the way, I love Riqueni. He doesn't hit you in the gut with his playing, but it's beautiful, light, shimmering stuff. It sounds like I might like a little Canizares, I'll have to check him out.



Ron.M -> RE: More thoughts on picado--the gauntlet is down! (Apr. 3 2005 17:09:47)

quote:

Reinforces my belief that there are people whom it deosn't matter what they turn to, they will be naturally gifted.


Hi Jim,
I think you're right.
The two main elements of playing anything are musicianship and technique.
Musicianship is the main one IMO.

I taught a young Norwegian guy a few chords and within a few months he was writing his own songs and putting the chords in weird and interesting combinations with clever rhythms.

Six months later he formed his own band.

The guitar was only an outlet for what he already had in his head.

I've also come across other guys with the same talent, like John Martyn, who wasn't an ace guitarist like Bert Jansch or John Renbourne, but compensated for it with good ideas.
Like he worked out a short but interesting open-tuning melody, that couldn't really be taken anywhere..it sort of closed in on itself.
So what he did was move the capo up one fret inbetween verses which gave it a whole new drive and impetus and made a complete and interesting song.
It's clever things like that which come from a "musical" brain IMO.

cheers

Ron



Jim Opfer -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Apr. 3 2005 22:09:32)

quote:

I love Riqueni


Snashin' player/composer. First class and amongs the best. Great to hear he's on his way back following his missfortunes.



Ricardo -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Apr. 3 2005 22:40:35)

Of course there are going to be exceptions, but I was speaking generally in the other post, about your average advanced player, like a John Williams type guy vs V. Amigo type guy. I saw Gallardo w/ Canizares, and even though he is classical, he has good "compas" and could easily make you think he was a flamenco player. Likewise, Canizares or Riqueni play classical pretty convincingly. Even Paco learned some classical pieces, of course his tone would not be considered great in the classical world. Scott Tennant plays a little Solea in his Pumping Nylon vid, his tone is what gives away that he is not a flamenco. Tone is a big part of both styles, maybe the hardest thing to emulate.

If I finish this Chaconne thing, I would expect to get criticized by the classical guys for the tone, and missing a few notes, but that is all hopefully. I would not expect a Classical player to sound like Sabicas. But he has to play in compas if he is going to learn a flamenco piece like bulerias for example. ALL flamenco players recognize the importance of compas. Trafalgar was mentioned before. I find that piece to be a lot more difficult than the Bach, but the difficulty is more in the compas, maintaning it and expressing it. I have heard quite a few "classical" renditions of that piece when I was in Spain. There are no rasgueados, but there is a flamenco way to play that piece that a classical guy doesn't pick up on. It is a bulerias and that feeling should be there, but it can sound like a waltz. That would be something a little easier for a classical guy to have a go at than something w/ a lot of rasgueados. Likewise I am sure there are much easier classical standards than the Chaconne.

So after learning this Chaconne I want to hear the classical guy play Punta del Faro w/ the compas CD, palmas loop or metronome. Or even Trafalgar since there are no golpes or rasgueado. But I am having fun anyway, I like Bach!

Ricardo



Miguel de Maria -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Apr. 3 2005 23:10:42)

Richard,
the Chaconne is a great piece, one of the jewels of the CG world although of course it was written for violin. I haven't had any CG guys take up the challenge, they just argue about how atonal music is good and I'm not educated enough to understand it, etc. etc.



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