More thoughts on picado (Full Version)

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Miguel de Maria -> More thoughts on picado (Feb. 6 2005 16:19:19)

Lately I've been really looking at the way my fingertips and nails interact with the strings, in order to get the most efficient stroke. I don't want to waste motion or effort in pushing or pulling the strings in a way unless it is necessary. For free strokes, the overall tendency has been for my wrist to arch and the fingers to straighten. it seems that this way you get a deep stroke with very little motion.

I was playing picado, trying all sorts of angles, and kept running into the same problem: the i and m fingers just don't work the same. My i slides off the string easily and smoothly, but the m catches a little bit. That little bit of catch changes the sensation, which throws off the rhythm of the machine. It also strains the finger between the 2nd and 3rd joint, so I am often sore there. I knew that I couldn't continue to play this way.

So I got real close to the guitar and just looked at the fingers and the nails. If you can picture me playing picado, with my head Under the guitar, that is where I saw an important thing. The i attacks the 1st string at an angle, and that's why it slides. However, the m "hooks" the strings. It pulls the string and collapses slightly in order to release it. A very inefficient motion, requiring strength that doesn't translate directly to volume or speed.

Now...when I curled up the fingers like Paco or the modern flamencos, the angle changed very much. When they were curled up like hooks, the i and the m finger magically began to attack the string at almost the exact same angle. The m no longer hooked and it slid just the same as the i.

Perhaps this is why the curled up version is in vogue--it is more efficient!




Ron.M -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Feb. 6 2005 17:30:31)

Mike,
How did you get your head under the guitar to look up at your fingers playing picado. Have you got a very long neck or something?
Would be a neat trick to use at your next gig.
A bit like Hendrix playing the guitar behind his head and all that. [:D][:D]

cheers

Ron




duende -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Feb. 6 2005 17:31:41)

maybe.... But after seeing the Gerardo Nuñez DVD i realise that my rasgueados neads more work. But i will go for the curled up fingers. Couldn´t you make a video and post at Todds foro? Im not sure i do the right curle..
(oh my[:o] Will this picado bull ever have an end?.. It seems it´s the only technique that doesnt agree with me and my hands.)[:o]

Henrik




duende -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Feb. 6 2005 19:12:02)

i sent a video to Todd. It would be nice to hear what you have to say about it Miguel.
You seem to analyse a lot.

Henrik




Miguel de Maria -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Feb. 6 2005 19:25:45)

Henrik,
I practice and gig a lot and am always looking to perfect my technique. So I am always trying new things. I can't view videos or post them becuase of my Mac.

Here's what I suggest you do: Play picado very slowly, and try to view it from all different areas. Get your head near the bridge and real close to your fingers, get the head near the 12th fret. You can move the guitar all around, just try to keep the same angle with your fingers. What I did was balance the lower bout of the guitar on my right leg, sort of like old school flamencos, and ducked my head under the neck. That way you can get a "dog's eye" view of the fingers.

What I was looking for was an identical angle and action between the i and m.




duende -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Feb. 6 2005 19:47:21)

can´t you see real or quicktime either??




Miguel de Maria -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Feb. 6 2005 20:44:50)

Quicktime is fine. real works but the quality is so low that you can hardly tell what's going on. If you have stuff in Quicktime I would be able to take a look at it, sure.




Ron.M -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Feb. 6 2005 21:24:43)

quote:

I can't view videos or post them becuase of my Mac.

Yeah, It's pretty difficult to play Betamax on an a VHS player/recorder as well.
So what's happenin' Mike?
I hear Steve Jobs is bringing out a great new Apple Computer!
Thinking of buyin' it?
Or is the only way we can see you play is to get a flight to Pheonix?
(Hey, I hope you're gonna be putting on the food and hospitality, right?)
I wanna see this big house and driveway of yours LOL!

cheers

Ron




Ricardo -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Feb. 6 2005 21:53:03)

You don't need to be a contortionist to see how your fingers are attacking the strings. Use a mirror, or video yourself. It helps a lot when practicing, just like audio recording.

Ricardo




eslastra -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Feb. 7 2005 4:02:31)

Picado is not one of my strong techniques and is my least favorite to practice because it is the most fickle. There's days when no matter how hard I try and concentrate, I can't even play a simple eighth note phrase without flubbing a couple of notes. Then there are not so common days when I can play the same phrase with no trouble at all. What gives here? [:@] Practicing picado doesn't give me the same return on time invested as does alzapua, for instance. But I have to say that on the rare occasion that I can pull off a good punchy picado, it really does feel good [8D] Almost like hitting a bull's eye or something?

One thing I've noted in analyzing my picado technique is that I play phrases smoother if the "i" finger leads. By this I mean that the "i" finger marks the down beats of the note groups. Whenever I picado with the "m" finger leading, I can't play the phrase with the same evenness and control as with the "i" finger. Perhaps it's natural mismatch of the "i" and "m" finger lengths, or maybe I just haven't worked hard enough at marking the down beats with the "m" finger [X(] I usually end up changing the fingering patterns of picado transcriptions to accomodate my "i" leading preference. It works for most phrases but not all. Some have to be played with the "m" leading, and these are ones I strugggle with [:@] Anybody else out there have a preference for playing picado or are you the fortunate ones that can play either way with no trouble any day of the week? Please tell me I'm not alone [:o]




matija -> [Deleted] (Feb. 7 2005 13:20:44)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 14 2005 10:13:07




Miguel de Maria -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Feb. 7 2005 15:09:14)

-Picado is not one of my strong techniques and is my least favorite to practice because it is the most fickle.

My friend Miguel Rodriguez, a master, told me: "Picado will always be the hardest technique, because it requires coordination.:

-There's days when no matter how hard I try and concentrate, I can't even play a simple eighth note phrase without flubbing a couple of notes. Then there are not so common days when I can play the same phrase with no trouble at all. What gives here?

I've experienced the same thing. One thing, the more you practice and work on it, the more consistent you become. But I saw Miguel in concert and he flubbed some fast scales, and well all know Paco messed up those fairly easy licks in Entre Dos Aguas on the video, right?

-[:@] Practicing picado doesn't give me the same return on time invested as does alzapua, for instance. But I have to say that on the rare occasion that I can pull off a good punchy picado, it really does feel good [8D] Almost like hitting a bull's eye or something?

When I hit a picado run dead on, I feel like I'm flying. I love it.

-One thing I've noted in analyzing my picado technique is that I play phrases smoother if the "i" finger leads. By this I mean that the "i" finger marks the down beats of the note groups. Whenever I picado with the "m" finger leading, I can't play the phrase with the same evenness and control as with the "i" finger. Perhaps it's natural mismatch of the "i" and "m" finger lengths, or maybe I just haven't worked hard enough at marking the down beats with the "m" finger [X(]

I noticed the same thing. In fact, Miguel told me I needed to practice starting with the m more. I started doing that, and like a tennis player who gets better at the backhand after working so hard on it, started getting better at the m. It is important. However, Miguel claism that in flamenco, you should make sureyour i finger is better, because the m is naturally stronger.

-I usually end up changing the fingering patterns of picado transcriptions to accomodate my "i" leading preference. It works for most phrases but not all. Some have to be played with the "m" leading, and these are ones I strugggle with [:@] Anybody else out there have a preference for playing picado or are you the fortunate ones that can play either way with no trouble any day of the week? Please tell me I'm not alone [:o]
[/quote]

You're not alone, Eddie, you're not alone! The problems you have are the same ones I have had/have. Maybe some people don't have them,b ut I do! It's a damn hard technique! But I do believe that anyone who really wants it, can have it, but they have to put in a lot more time than on something like rasgueado, alzapua, or maybe any other single technique.

Ron, I never knew anyone wanted a video of me playing! Not much to see there, really :) Anyways, we've had financial troubles and are going to be moving out of the manse. Housing prices have risen 25% here in the last year, and we think they're going to blow. We'll rent for awhile and buy something else when it settles down...




rickm -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Feb. 7 2005 15:20:02)

again, my teacher, who studied in Vienna, blah blah, has me do picado extremely slowly looking for exact tone on both fingers. He also has me alternate picado with m, a and even pinky, stating that hand strenght is not regulated just to i and m. by strenghening and coordinating the whole hand, i an m are better. He also has me do a walking motion, again in slow speed, that concerns itself by returning the m finger to the e string as the i strikes and vice verssa, (sorry if this is confusing) and is also staccato. Later we introduce the metronome and scale passages. Unless that foundation is clearly established, like argeggion and tremelo it is fruitless to jump into speed runs that deliver unclear notes. Hope this helps




Jamey -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Feb. 7 2005 16:18:28)

Mike, I don't understand your troubles with viewing video on your Mac. I have a Mac and I can view everything regardless of format without any trouble.

Perhaps PM me and I'll see if there's something that you can do to correct this. Macs are multimedia machines and certainly out gun Windows machines in that regard.




Miguel de Maria -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Feb. 7 2005 18:47:52)

Jamey,
I don't know, I haven't been very happy with my Mac, but in this case I think it's more of a connectivity issue. I am running 9.2, not the more current, Windows-like system, so I can't use WMA. The reason I use 9.2 is because some software I have (my recording software and my slowdown software) are in this version and cannot run on X. Since I hardly record, maybe I should just make the switch!




Ron.M -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Feb. 7 2005 20:23:23)

Yeah Mike,
Because of the depression in the Stock Market and low Interest rates, folk have been investing their dough in property here too, although that looks like it's reached it's peak now. There's nowhere else to go.
Probably, the best bet now is drug smuggling or people traffiking LOL!
Anyway, I hope you realize I was being my usual silly self criticizing you for having that Mac.
Like Jamey, I always thought the Mac was multimedia oriented and could beat the PC anyday at that sort of task.
That's why all the printing and newspaper companies use them....???

Anyway, on a more constructive thread...
I was listening to Antonio Higuera (sp?) the other day doing a really beautiful intro to a Malagueñas.
He's a really good Jerez guitarist with an excellent technique.
When he came to the final medium-fast picado run, he played it very unevenly although I know he can play evenly when he wants to.
The result?
Fantastic!
He captured the feeling of the moment, the fragility of the phrase which would have been lost had he played it "a la Paco".
I've noticed that a lot of Jerez players, sometimes pull back on their technique and try to produce a more "primitive" type of sound, be it with rasgueado or picado and it always gets a round of "oles" from the audience.


cheers

Ron




Miguel de Maria -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Feb. 7 2005 22:24:57)

Ron,
that's music, that's artistry, you're talking about there... I am obsessed with technique right now, obviously, but I consider it a stepping stone to what you are talking about--making great music! I'd like to listen to that guy. As far as the Macs, I don't really care, but I won't be getting another Mac. i'm not a computer guy and I don't know enough to take advantage of its abilities. As far as I can tell, PCs have made up a lot of ground, enough for people like Todd to use them for recording.

Right now in my car I have a double CD set called "The Best Flamenco Ever." Obviously, a pretentious title, and definitely more skewed toward recent acts such as Pepe Hab, Paco, Tomatito, Vicente, Camaron, Jose Merce, Remedios Amaya, etc. It does have a nice cross-section of stuff. Sometimes I don't want to hear Camaron on every song, but when you hear his voice or Jose Menese's voice in a "sampler", it really sticks out at you. I love that CD.




Jamey -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Feb. 8 2005 1:58:08)

Mike, a few things. First, ditch 9.2. Anything prior to OS X on a Mac was basically garbage and not worth the headache to keep afloat. Make the switch to the newer OS, it's MUCH better. The newer Mac OS X isn't Windows-like, it's more Linux-like (small wonder since it's now a unix-based OS). The Amazing Slow Downer software for slowing down MP3s and other audio files is also available for Mac OS X. For recording there's a lot of options out there (I guess it's what you are familiar and comfortable with). What are you using in particular?

OS X has been out for a couple of years now and the earlier OS 9.x was enough to drive me to Windows NT and Linux. OS X really is far superior to 9.2 and far more stable.

I know it may sound like a big deal for nothing, but believe me, nothing sucks more than Mac OS 9.2 (and earlier).




Miguel de Maria -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Feb. 8 2005 4:55:18)

Well, Jamey, you're right it sucks. Not only do I seem to have problems interacting with windows users, it just seems to be slow and a bit buggy. It doesnt' crash that much, but it sometimes takes forever to do simple things. I hate it! I can get a new slowdowner, I guess I can see if they have made a new Audiodesk (goes with MOTU 828) I can upgrade to...




Jon Boyes -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Feb. 8 2005 8:51:53)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
Well, Jamey, you're right it sucks. Not only do I seem to have problems interacting with windows users, it just seems to be slow and a bit buggy. It doesnt' crash that much, but it sometimes takes forever to do simple things. I hate it!


Yeah, buy a PC. Your experience will be the same as above, but at least you won't feel left out.

Jon




ToddK -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Feb. 8 2005 9:34:58)

At the moment, i believe a dual 3.4 ghz processor (pentium)

is quite a bit faster than the flagship G5 Mac.

So PC's are more than up to the task. They're also less expensive.

There are also infinitely more software titles for PC too.

I built my Audio PC for 900 bucks. Bought the parts online.

The Mac equivalent would have cost me 3 or 4 times that. Maybe more.

So what's so great about MAC? I forget. [8D]

TK




PacoPaella -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Feb. 8 2005 14:40:14)

Hehe thats not quite correct...in fact you can get one of the new iMac Mini for 500 US, upgrade with memory and DVD writer, and get away below 900. A quality PC costs as much as a Mac nowadays, or more - you gotta look at what you get in return. Few PC's have FireWire interfaces, for example...

Wether a dual Pentium 3.4 is faster or not should be left to spec to decide, however its of very little interest to the average user. Performance isnt an issue really these days unless you are a heavy duty gamer or scientist. For recording, the mac has within the iLife package the GarageBand product, which looked very nice to me at first sight. It allows simultaneous recording of up to 8 tracks, including Midi. It also writes the music in notation as you play, for all tracks in parallel - thats one cool feature.
So basically, with a Mac you get
- the software you need
- practically no virii/worms/trojans
- no driver problems
- no vendor-side spyware
- a far superior, secure and modern operating system with awesome look and feel
- highly usable and thoughtful software and
- the feeling to own a nicely designed piece of technique instad of an anonymous grey cube.

Just my 0.02 $...dont believe the M$ Brainwash [:D]




Jamey -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Feb. 8 2005 15:14:26)

Macs are more visual than anything else. The G5s are very fast if the software running on it was written for 64bit processing (if it's 64bit optimized and running on a G5, it will be faster than whatever overclocked i386 architecture you're comparing to - but software in general isn't up to date yet). Certainly faster than Intel's standard chipset architecture (but I don't know about Intel's newer 64bit chips nor AMD's Athlon64 chips that recently came out).

You can build a pretty decent Windows machine to take care of audio stuff, they really do have great audio editing software. They suck at video though unless you spend an arm and a leg to built a serious high end workstation, at which point you're in the same price range as the dual G5 systems anyway. At that point, it just comes down to what you're more comfortable with since neither is better than the other.

It all really depends upon what you want to do with your computer. In most cases, either type of machine is more than enough computer to accomplish what most people use them for. Macs are sort of like Volvos or Subarus, the people that use them are more or less devoted fans, while other people acknowledge they are nice but don't particularly want to spend the money on them.




Escribano -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Feb. 8 2005 15:27:17)

quote:

Performance isnt an issue really these days unless you are a heavy duty gamer or scientist
True, these guys use a lot of horsepower and that is mostly from the cards - graphics, A/Ds etc. These cards are also cheaper and more readily available for the PC - running Windows or not.

quote:

Few PC's have FireWire interfaces, for example...

So, a 3 port FireWire card costs $15 for a PC and easy to install. Invented at Apple - BTW.
quote:

the software you need
- depends on what you need. There is an order of magnitude more software for the Wintel platform.
quote:

practically no virii/worms/trojans
An indication of their market share and the ownership of hardware and OS. This will change with their use of open source components.
quote:

no driver problems
- another indication of their market share, less 3rd party add-ons.
quote:

a far superior, secure and modern operating system with awesome look and feel
what makes Windows XP old and UNIX modern? Have you checked out the Apple security flaws?

quote:

Apple Computer Inc. has issued a patch for 15 security flaws in its Mac OS X operating system, including many originating in the software's open-source components... Possible exploits include remote execution of malicious code, denial of service, local user privilege escalation, cross-site scripting and Web page spoofing - Sept. 2004


quote:

highly usable and thoughtful software and
- the feeling to own a nicely designed piece of technique instad of an anonymous grey cube
Agreed

quote:

Just my 0.02 $...dont believe the M$ Brainwash
MS don't make anonymous grey cubes. One of the reasons Apple is still afloat was a $100 million investment from Microsoft and MS is still the largest developer for the Mac.

Although I am aware this thread is going off-topic, I've worked at Apple and Microsoft. I would consider the Mac if there was a piece of hardware or software that I just HAD to have and couldn't build up myself on the PC and Windows (or even Linux). Having recently got into non-linear video editing, I'll have to take another look at the Mac. I hear Final Cut is awesome.

This might help: I replaced all the PCs in BP's Head Office with Macs then the PC caught up and I replaced all Booz-Allen & Hamilton's Macs with PCs[:D]




ToddK -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Feb. 8 2005 16:35:27)

IMac mini??????


Just the ram for a Mac would cost more than my whole set up. :)

I have/need 4 gigs of ram to run my Orchestra samplers.

But thanks for the suggestion.[;)]


TK




PacoPaella -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Feb. 8 2005 18:06:36)

Hmm probably indeed off topic but i wouldnt like to leave some of your statements uncommented...
regarding benefits you "blame" on lack of market share: The virus problems as well as the driver problems are a direct offspring of MS's system architecture and the IBM PC architecture itself. Its wrong to justify them with a superior market position, they are inherent to MS's approach. And btw even if it was due to Apple's minor share, that is totally irrelevant; what counts is the FACT that the number of virii that threaten a Mac system compared to those targeting Windows have a relation of 1:1000 or so, and the FACT that there are virtually no driver issues at all, opposed to the hell you can go through with Intel/PC based hardware and drivers. Explain it with energetic fields, moon phases or market share, as long as it works i prefer the less problematic system.

And pointing out 15 security flaws in OS X without mentioning several houndred over the same period, within windows, is...somewhat...selective [:D]

Superiority of Unix compared to Windows? I guess that would lead too far here, and for the most part its irrelevant for the people in this forum. What matters here, as i gather from previous posts are simple things...how to simply record? Watch the Videos? Notation etc.. Apart from Todd few people here seem to have need for 4GB RAM from what i can tell. Anyhow i just thought i would add something to a topic i have an educated opinion about, when i cant really comment on Flamenco too much [;)]

No pun intended, let everyone use what she / he prefers. Peace.




Escribano -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Feb. 8 2005 19:19:29)

quote:

No pun intended, let everyone use what she / he prefers. Peace.


This thread could run and run, so as you say, Peace.




Ron.M -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Feb. 8 2005 19:40:58)

quote:

He captured the feeling of the moment, the fragility of the phrase which would have been lost had he played it "a la Paco".


And he didn't have 2 gigabytes of RAM up his arm either! [:D]

Ron




ToddK -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Feb. 8 2005 19:46:22)

The more ram i have available,
the faster i can play!!![8D]LOL

I'm saving for a 64 bit Intel system, so watch out!!!
[;)]

TK




Jamey -> RE: More thoughts on picado (Feb. 8 2005 20:08:16)

Yeah it will sound like a continuous tone to the unaided ear and we'll all have to use "Slow Downer" to actually figure out what Todd's doing! [:D][:D]
"That thar is sum fancy picking Tex!" [8D]




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