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Can we learn from our sisters?
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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 Can we learn from our sisters?
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Can we learn from our siblings, the classical guitarists? I think a lot of flamencos have a fear/hate relationship with classical guitar, we might think of them as a bit snooty and nerdy, effeminate in their approach, maybe envy them their ability to read music and play complex left hand passages. Okay, maybe I'm projecting these feelings on you guys, but this is the way I feel! Except I can read music, no problem :).
But seriously, because I'm very focused on building my technique at this point, I have looked to classical to supplement my knowledge, and found it very, very helpful. Classical guitarists have nothing to say about rasgueo, and they probably think of our picado as heavy and freakish, but man, they know a lot about the left hand! In their ranks they include true academics, that is, people who are allowed to sit and daydream about esoteric things like the philosophy of the position change. Of course, none of us have time to waste on things like that, but we can reap the benefits of their wasted lives!
I have a book called "Classical Guitar Pedagogy," can't remember the author, that touches on a lot of technique points we should perhaps all be aware of. If you don't have a good teacher, or if your teacher has weird technique, you should supplement your knoweldge with good books! This is my feeling, at least.
When I was in Sevilla, one of my classmates was a classical guitarist. Pretty good, he played Concierto de Aranjuez in concert! (with a piano, unfortunately :)). Anyways, I loved to leech him for information, and he had a lot. This is the guy that practiced 5 hours a day, claimed that any less would simply not work. He said before a concert, he would practice the complex pieces all day, hours and hours a day, to get them right. If you didn't do this, this kind of ultra-training on the pieces, they would never be at their top level. After the concert, you kind of leave them alone for awhile, and then the next concert you get back at them. So you spend so much time learning and perfecting a piece, you can't just chill, every concert you have to get back at them and work your butt off again, I asked? That's right, he said.
Well, he also told me that he had learned most of the etudes, the Sor, Carcassi, Guiliani, Villa Lobos, and we agreed that it would be good for flamencos to learn these as well, but using flamenco technique (classical and flamenco technique is quite different). So I am in the process of learning a bunch of these classical studies, especially the ones that seem to have some relevance to flamenco patterns. I think it only makes sense. These composers were all guitar geniouses, and teachers as well. They composed these studies to work on technique--why not take advantage of the fruit of their knowledge? Many of the studies are not too long, nor too difficult. They focus one or two technical problems.
Plus, it is satisfying to really bang out one of these classical studies with flamenco technique. I think a classical guitarist would be revolted and awed by my playing of some of these arpeggio studies, so loud and with such a bright tone! Man, what are you doing to that thing, why? Why? I'm a flamenco, that's why!
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Date Aug. 18 2003 15:21:53
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: Can we learn from our sisters? (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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Peter, that's a beautiful site. Look what I gleaned from it:
John Sloboda:
1. In several cultures studied by anthropologists, the great majority of people achieve levels of musical expertise which are far above the norms for our own society. This suggests that cultural, not biological, factors are limiting the spread of musical expertise in our own society.
2. Musical accomplishment does not always run in families. Where children from families with no musical background are given appropriate opportunities and encouragement they can achieve outstanding results.
3. The majority of top-ranking professional musicians were not child prodigies. In fact, studies reveal that very few able musicians showed any signs of special musical promise either in infancy, or even after they had been learning an instrument for some years.
4. There are no clear examples of outstanding achievement in musical performance or composition that were not preceded by many years of intense preparation and practice. In the case of child prodigies, it seems their level of early practice far exceeded that of the normal musician.
5. Many of the perceptual skills required to handle musical input are very widespread, develop spontaneously through the first ten years of life and do not seem to require formal musical instruction to develop. The skill of ‘perfect pitch’ has often been singled out as a special innate sign of ‘musical talent’. In fact, there is evidence that the skill can be learned by any determined person and is actually present in an unrefined form in as much as two-thirds of the general untrained population. Furthermore, only a minority of top-ranking musicians possess perfect pitch in its fully developed form, so it is a rather poor predictor
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Date Aug. 18 2003 18:02:56
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Jon Boyes
Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
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RE: Can we learn from our sisters? (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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Speaking as someone who was taught classical guitar for several years, and has only really dabbled in flamenco, I would say the answer is undoubtedly 'yes'.
For guitarists who accompany, less so, but for solo guitarists and/or those who want to improve their falsetas and technique in general, I think classical guitar has a lot to offer the flamenco guitarist (mind you, I think it works the other way as well - most serious classical guitarists would agree that to play the spanish CG repertoire well, some understanding or study of flamenco is very beneficial.)
My main observation is this: clasical guitar pedagogy goes back hundreds of years - that is to say, we have books by people like Sor, Tarrega, Carcassi from the ninteenth century, and material on lute technique (the predecesor to CG in many ways) even older than that. There are hundreds of universities all over the worlds where you can study classical guitar, a large repertoire of study material and usually access to teachers locally.
Contrast this with flamenco guitar - it is only in the past few decades that books have appeared o the market, and in the last decade, tuition videos and the Internet. It is tradionally a folk art with the skills passed down in famailies/local towns of whatever.
The teaching tradion and 'knowledge base' of guitar is therefore much, much more extensive in classical guitar than it is in flamenco. There is a huge amout of stuff out there that flamenco guitarists are only just discovering - like the principles in the technque book 'Pumping Nylon' for example (much of which actually appeared in much older books).
Add all this to the fact that ever since Ricardo, Montoya and Sabicas started using musical ideas from classical guitar to develop the solo potential of the instrument, I would say that today the two styles (solo flamenco guitar and classical guitar) are closer than they have ever been.
So yes, despite the obvious differences in approaches and the fact that some techniques are much more exclusive to, or developed in, flamenco, I would say that we can learn from our sisters.
One more thing - there are many, many common misconceptions about the classical guitar approach and technique. I read them all the time in other guitar forums. There were some classics whenever the subject came up on FT.
Cheers
Jon
_____________________________
Spanish Guitarist in Devon, Cornwall and Somerset
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Date Aug. 19 2003 9:32:56
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Paleto
Posts: 243
Joined: Jul. 29 2003
From: San Diego, CA
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RE: Can we learn from our sisters? (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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Hi everyone,
This queston has been one I've spent some time thinking about, and I do very much agree with Michael and Jon. Flamenco guitarists can learn a lot from classical pedogogy. As well, classical guitarists can stand to learn some things from flamencos.
Jons remarks are very pertinent and suggest things I also have discovered or read about myself.
The page linked above has some worthwhile articles. I too liked the John Sloboda articles, the Gordon Crosskey article and exercise suggestions as well as the Ricardo Iznaola article. I found that the G. Crosskey article and exercises had some worthwhile concepts.
As Jon has mentioned, the classical pedogogy is well developed (perhaps the rhythmic area could benefit specifically from flamenco) and offers much thinking about many, many aspects of musicianship. Some of them may go un-discovered by a guitarist unwilling to search for them.
As I have begun to work on certain studies from the classical pedogogy, I have kept asking myself, Which of these are really worth my while to incorporate into my practice routine? How can I apply this or that concept to playing flamenco? And importantly, does this or that exercise generalize? (Does the skill this exercise offers apply to other areas of playing or not? It is quite important for each guitarist to think about this, we can waste a lot of time playing mindless exercises, I know I have.) Importantly, I have looked to the thought from classical musicians, guitarists and otherwise, for suggestions on how to practice, and I have found a wealth of information. Of course it takes quite a bit of time and hard work to assimilate it and actually use it, but to be aware of it is step one.
The more traditionally oriented flamenco guitarists sometimes don't seem to care about reading music, in many cases it seems to be argued that flamenco is felt and doesn't lend itself well to musical notation. While this is true, I think the question of playing flamenco from musical notation is more complicated than this response allows. One positive element of musical notation is that it is a pretty clear, quick way to communicate a musical idea. The skill learned by non-reading flamenco guitarists of quickly picking up a musical sequence especially by ear is also admirable, and I would suggest any guitarist learn both ways of approaching music - they are mutually beneficial. In any case, reading musical notation is a worthwhile skill which opens the door to important aspects of musicianship. I have taken concepts from one exercise and applied them to another, and I think this process has been aided by reading music. As an example, I have practiced rasgueo using things I picked up while practicing arpeggio (Giuliani) - coloration, string combinations, left hand fretting pressure control vs. volume, etc. One could discover these without musical notation, but I think musical notation as well as pedagogy has made much of this discovery more likely.
There is no question, as far as I can see, that spontaneity is very important in flamenco, and completely rehearsed "pieces" can lose that sense of spontaneity. However, there is something admirable in rehearsed/choreographed flamenco, and I don't think it should be trashed simply on that basis. Rehearsed pieces are just that: rehearsed pieces. Perhaps its not everyones cup of tea, which perfectly fine. The guitarist who only does rehearsed pieces however, is missing out on the skills associated with the sponteaneous, traditional/orthodox approach.
Also relevant to the discussion seems to be the importance of playing with singers and dancers. Some people do not have access to these opportunities, only they can change that, but sometimes at too great a cost. So playing from books and videos is the only option available.
I can say I have had the opportunity and feel lucky to be able to say that. At the moment I cannot play for class, but I'll be back playing for dancers (and singers) by spring - I am looking forward to it. (New baby at home).
If anyone wants to discuss specific technical exercises or related questions, please - let's trade ideas. I'd be interested to know what studies or exercises others like and feel have made a positive difference for them. I have been working on some things I think have been helpful for me. Any suggestions are welcome.
Anthony
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Date Aug. 19 2003 21:46:57
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: Can we learn from our sisters? (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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Anthony,
great to hear such a rich post, full of thought and in such accord with my own recent studies! I could talk about technique for hours; it's been my focus for the last year, as I've been getting quite serious and really putting in some time and brainpower to master this damn thing, the guitar. I liked what you said about practicing exercises that apply to flamenco and that generalize. Just a few days ago, I was perusing my first classical text, that has quite a few studies from Sor, Giuliani, etc., asking myself this very question.
I settled on a couple to spend some time on, an Allegro in Dm by Giuliani that consists of bass with arpeggios on the E and B strings. I've been playing these with i and m, and I practice it at 60, 80, 100, 120, and 140 bpm. It sounds quite different while played with the flamenco technique and agression, and I've noticed a certain sensation in common with this arpeggio and the feeling of fast picado. The i and m are moving independently, back and forth... a simple, strong motion. I'd have to say this etude has really helped both my arps and my picado. Enrique de Merchor said that people with good arpeggios have good picado, which is enough to make me practice arpeggio!
Another is an Allegretto in Am by Carcassi, I believe, a pre-tremolo study. A lot of the figures are p a m i tremoloesque figures, others are p i a i arps on the upper strings. Again, this sensation of independence, of a strong, simple, independent movement, comes to predominate, and seems to inform my picado as well. A useful exercise, I think. Both of these are great for working the independence of the fingers, and as well, for working the thumb. I feel any arp exercise using the thumb as the base can be used to work the thumb and get a real good rest stroke. If you focus on the thumb at times and then focus on the fingers, eventually I think you get a really balanced, efficient hand.
Anthony, which studies have you found particularly useful?
I was thinking what a miracle it is that Paco achieved his level of technique, coming from what was basically a primitive situation. Learning by watching others, listening to tapes, with sporadic interaction with a non-professional teacher--why, to learn technique in this way requires much re-inventing of the wheel. A brief review of the classical guitar technique literature can inject so many new ideas into one's head, give so many perspectives, share so much information. Yes, it is possible to do it by oneself, but why? Do we want to waste two years learning a concept that we could find in two minutes in a book?
One of my teachers in Sevilla, Miguel Angel Cortes, taught us a bunch of studies--that he had composed. Now, composing studies is a good exercise in itself, certainly admirable, but I bet that studies for the same thing have existed since 1750. I say, get a book of classical studies, look through them, if you must, play through them quickly. Eventually something will catch your eye, and you'll see one that you realize will help you.
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Date Aug. 20 2003 3:11:21
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Thomas Whiteley
Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area
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RE: Can we learn from our sisters? (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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Michael;
Discussing the value of classical training for the flamenco guitarists or flamenco training for the classical guitarist is an interesting topic. I have heard the argument for many years that classical training will ruin flamenco technique.
When I was four years old I saw Vicente Gomez playing flamenco guitar. I recall so well my feelings – I had to learn how to play like that! It sounded like three guitars playing at once to me. Vicente Gomez first learned classical guitar and then flamenco, as is true of Mario Escudero, and Pepe Ramero.
I began with piano when I was six and had my first guitar at ten, beginning with classical music. I had several teachers off and on including Rey de la Torre, and a summer session at U.C. Berkeley with Segovia. During this time I was also playing flamenco guitar. Sometimes it would get confusing -–which technique to use.
Carcassi, is one of my favorite methods for guitar, and I still have my original book. The techniques I use for flamenco are a bit of classical and flamenco. I attempt to use technique that seems appropriate for the occasion. I can assure you that I had to endure many comments from my teachers – both classical and flamenco. Perhaps that is why I am most forgiving as to what technique a person uses to produce a sound on the guitar.
There are several ways to produce a good sound on a guitar depending upon what technique you are utilizing. Now if you want to be a world class player such as Sabicas or PDL, you will develop and use your own technique. Each teacher I have had wanted me to be a “little copy of him or her”!
For those of us who are mere mortals, we should just always try to do our best and enjoy ourselves. One suggestion I always give and live by is to think of what you are doing and strive to improve your technique for even the simplest passage or falseta. Sometimes it is simply re-fingering the left or right hand to attain what you want. To me that is a benefit of using tablature as it is easy to change the fingering.
I still sight read music notation but prefer tab for my flamenco pieces as I am constantly changing something. It is so much easier to see the strings and visualize what seems like the best fingering when you use tab. I circle a number (1-4) for the left hand and use i,M,A, m, P for the right hand. It makes things easier for me.
_____________________________
Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html
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Date Aug. 20 2003 4:49:40
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: Can we learn from our sisters? (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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Tom,
excellent points. I suppose I can see why a flamenco would think classical training could ruin flamenco technique, but I would have to dismiss it... we take what we want and apply it, always keeping our eyes on the prize--flamenco! Maybe there are a lot of people out there, non guitarists all, who think that Ramon Montoya was the beginning of the end. Please, flamenco guitar, not baile or cante, is what brought me to the doorstep of flamenco, and it is always to whom I will pay allegiance!
Tom, I wonder specifically how you feel about practicing classical etudes using flamenco technique, ie, hand position, sound, rest strokes?
One thing that I never noticed before is that I am having to concentrate on switching. Switching between arpeggio position and picado position, between 1st and 5th position, etc. I have heard that a lot of classical teachers teach to always have the same position, but I watch Paco and Vicente and know that this rule can't apply to us (and I don't believe it applies to classical either).
I thought it was interesting that you think you have to go outside of normal technique to get to Paco or Sabicas' level. Is this because guitar technique is simply not sufficient, not developed enough, to bring us to this level? Is it because the variance in our bodies is so great as to necessitate a personal approach to reach the peak of virtuosity?
This catches my attention, because there are teachers of classical guitar, say Aaron Shearer, who has taught Manuel Barrueco. Can we trust this teacher to get us to Paco's/Manuel's level? Is it that at some level Shearer's knowledge is undeveloped, untested? Is the technique of guitar simply not established enough to follow, must we lead?
I know there are a lot of good players today, both classial and flamenco, we could call virtuosos, or perhaps, if you will, simply masters. Is there enough common pedagogy between them that we can follow them to mastery, or must we forge our own path? Are violin virtuosos similarly idiosyncratic geniouses, or is the pedagogy of their instrument sufficient to lead them to this level?
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Date Aug. 20 2003 15:26:45
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Paleto
Posts: 243
Joined: Jul. 29 2003
From: San Diego, CA
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RE: Can we learn from our sisters? (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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Hi again,
I have found the following things useful:
1) Giuliani - 120 right hand studies These I have used to work specifically on accuracy of finger placement, control, volume, independence basic things like that. They are boring, but I change keys, and chord types, making it a little more interesting and challenging. They can easily be turned into flamenco sounding exercises by switching the chords.
2) Carlos Barbosa Lima - some left hand studies which focus on left hand reach/stretch as well as finger independence. They are from a Mel Bay book which is now out of print. I like the way my left hand feels after working through them, and I recently would go through them once at the beginning of each practice session.
3) Luis Zea and John Duarte - The Guitarists Hands - I have started to work through this book about 3 months ago. The entire program I think takes around a year. It consists so far (I am in phase 3 of about 12) in placing the left hand fingers in more or less awkward positions and depressing just enough for propper fretting. The fingers depress their respective strings both indpendently and in various combinations. Part of the idea is to teach the left hand fingers to fret with just enough pressure, not too much which is very easy to do. Another part is train left hand finger independence in all kinds of positions, some not very likely to be found in a piece or in general playing, but the idea is control and independence. Each exercise begins with a base position, which at the end of each day, is moved down the neck from the tenth fret, using one finger at a time (while the others stay fretted in theri original position), helping stretch out the fingers. The book was recommended by some classical players from the Google Classical Guitar News Group. The exercises are tedious and not musical, but I do think they train the left hand well. This book is still sold from luthiermusic.com It is from the 1980's. Some of the psotions are quite difficult, but I really do think my left hand is improving, the stretches are very challenging sometimes, but in the end, they are working.
4) I have some exercises from a book I believe Pepe Romero wrote many years ago. They contain the crab exercise posted by Florian, some ligado exercises, some trill exercises, some barre exercises, a chromatic exercise that would require a lengthy description - maybe I can post it (these are definitely out of print, so I don't suspect there would be any problem).
5) Villa Lobos - Etude #1 in E minor, nice arpeggio study, not so easy for the left hand - well mine anyway.
6) For rasgueo, I have been doing very simple things like play a triplet p,a,i rasgueo, but use it in quadruplets, accenting the 1. Same with Marote's rasgueo, accenting the 1st of each 4 strums. Also, combining rasgueos in sequences for a continuous rasgueo but linking 2 or more different rasgueos in a continuous pattern. I have also been practicing the i,a,i where i is up stroke, a is down, then i down and continuing with i up again, doing it in 4s, 6s and 8s (or accenting the 1s strum in groups of 4, 6 or 8). I have been trying to combine them so that I can change from one rasgueo to another continuously. Make sense?
I am looking for some good alzapúa patterns in soleá, alegrías or bulerías. This is one thing I need to practice pretty badly. I play the Nuñez alegrías from Flamencos en nueva york, it has a little alzapúa, but it's not much.
My picado is pretty weak, I need to practice it. I was thinking of getting Aaron Shearer's scale patterns for guitar, any comments or suggestions? There is a classical guitar magazine on line called Guitarra Magazine http://www.guitarramagazine.com/ It has a Techniques and Practices section with some worthwhile articles, check them out. I liked Douglas Niedt's pieces called About Exercises, I would suggest to others who are interested to read them. You may find something of interest. I liked what he had to say about his ligado exercise. There is also a picado/scale exercise which seems decnt, I have been practicing it.
I use Aaron Shearer's wrist, hand and finger stretches before taking my guitar out of the case. I'd recommend this to anyone who plays guitar, no matter what style. Essentially you do tensor and flexor stretches. I take some deep breaths, roll my head, stretch my arms, rotating them at the shoulders. I do this every time I play, and I think its excellent. I found some literature about musicians injuries, and it really seems to help keep me concentrated and relaxed.
I am also beginning to practice scales but in 3rds and 6ths, as opposed to just straight A, B, C, D. 3rds, for anyone who isn't following would be A, C, B, D, C, E, D, F, E, G, F, A etc. in various patterns up the neck.
6ths would be A, F, B, G, C, A, D, B, E, C, F, D, G, E, starting as low as possible and climbing up the neck in various patterns.
With time, I'll do this in a number of keys, starting of course with those most common to flamenco.
I also use these patterns to practice tremolo, the 5 note flamenco one of course.
These last things I devised on my own, although they are common to all classical musicians. They can be employed in flamenco in small chunks and can be made to sound quite musical when used in the proper context. One can use them in just about any palo, but again, they'd have to short and lead from one chord to the next. It takes some time to work them out, which I am trying to do these days.
One last thing I forgot to mention, was another very useful approach to exercises. You can create your own directly from something you're working on. A difficult poassage or section can be turned into an exercise, then directly plugged back into the music. So if you're working on a Niño ricardo falseta, and there's a difficult part, extract it, dissect it to figure out just what the problem(s) is (are), and make an exercise out of it. Practice the exercise until you have it down and plug it back in. Many musicians advocate this approach, and there's no question it is valuable.
I think exercises can be a very rich source for creativity and you can develop your own falsetas almost directly from good exercises (this doesn't mean that we shouldn't learn falsetas from Ramón Montoya foreward, just that it is one way to develop them). Ramón Jiménez alluded to this in a recent interview on flamenco-world. Not only this but the intervallic exercises I mentioned above (3rds and 6ths or any other intervallic exercise) they develop the ear, perhaps a lot more than one might think at first glance, this would aid directly in improvising falsetas.
Anyway, that's 2 more of my cents.
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Date Aug. 20 2003 20:44:06
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