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RE: Music theory is way too complicated   You are logged in as Guest
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Rain

Posts: 475
Joined: Jul. 7 2005
 

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to rogeliocan

no Bb, 135b7 is the formula C7 is the dominant chord of the F major scale formula for a major scale is 1234567 in the of F major that would spell F G A Bb C D E F or 1234567
so if you start on the C you get C D E F G A Bb C or 123456b78.

C major C D E F G A B C 1234567
C minor C D Eb F G Ab Bb C 12b345b6b7 (relative major scale is Eb)
If you take the major scale whose formula is 1234567 wwhwwwh
you get the following modes :
From C to C major 1234567
D to D dorian 12B3456B7
E to E phrygian 1b2b345b6b7
F to F lydian 123#4567
G to G mixolydian 123456b7 dominat chord is derived from this scale degree 135b7
A to A Aoelian(orminor) 12b345b6b78
B to B locrian 1b2b3b4b5b6b7 the minor 7th b5 or half diminished chord 1b3b5b7
if it were fully diminished it would be 1b3b5bb7

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 15 2010 23:18:56
 
rogeliocan

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From: Canada

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to mrMagenta

quote:

Hate to dissapoint you again.. but C7 has Bb and Cmaj7 has B.


That's what I thought originally.

So then I don't get the comment: the diminished chord has a natural 7th not a lowered one.

What does natural mean, in C7 is the 7th natural?.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 15 2010 23:22:30
 
yourwhathurts69

 

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RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to rogeliocan

hey, regeliocan

it's taking me too long to write out a detailed explanations, so your just gonna have to trust that the system is actually very good and very descriptive - you just need to learn the rules. the only flaw is that there is no one way to write each chord. for example, your Am7b5 (half diminished) can be written as the following: Am7b5, Am7(b5), Ami7b5, Ami7(b5), Amin7b5, Amin7(b5), A-7b5, A-7(b5), Aø7

did I miss any? if you look at them, they all are pretty similar, so it's not too hard to figure out chords as long as you know the rules.

so what are the rules?? in general, assume the 7th is a flat seventh (in the key of C, an interval of C to Bb). after the letter name of the chord, if you see:

M, Maj, or Δ in front of the 7, it makes the 7th a major 7th interval regardless of what type of triad (C E G B).

nothing in front of the 7th, then it is still a flat 7th interval (ie C7 would have a 7th interval of C to Bb, so it is C E G Bb)

m, min, or - in front of the 7th, the triad is minor (ie C Eb G) and the 7th is still a flat 7th interval (so, cm7 has C Eb G Bb)

ø in front of the 7th, or b5 after the 7th, it is based on a diminished triad (C Eb Gb), and the 7th is still a flat 7th interval (so C7b5 has C Eb Gb Bb)

dim or ο in front of the 7th, it is based on a diminished triad (C Eb Gb), and because it is "fully diminished" it also has a diminished 7th interval meaning that you must flat the 7th again (ie Bb goes to Bbb, so Cdim7 is C Eb Gb Bbb)

Bbb sounds like A, but it is important to distinguish Bbb from A because although the pitch sounds the same, the notes are different. as you get more into the theory you'll see why this is important.

also notice that in the fully diminished 7th chord, there is a minor 3rd interval between each note in the chord. (C to Eb, Eb to Gb, Gb to Bbb)

and finally if you see Aug or + in front of the 7th, it is an augmented triad with the flat 7th interval (so, Caug7 is C E G# Bb)

there are a few other 7th chords that i didn't put here, but i think this is enough to process.



oh, and whether or not theory is important, trust me, it is. if you don't believe me, try to find 5 different ways to play the same chord on your guitar. give up?? now try thinking about what notes are in each chord you're trying to play. better? i thought so.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 15 2010 23:25:44
 
Rain

Posts: 475
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RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to rogeliocan

The C7 does not have a natural 7th if id did it would be major. Natural means that the chord is derived from the major scale of the chords root name in this case C. The C7 is derived form the F major scale which has C as its dominant chord. F major is spelled FGABbCDEF. the C7th chord is Spelled CEGBb 135b7.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 15 2010 23:33:34
 
Rain

Posts: 475
Joined: Jul. 7 2005
 

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Rain

In C major which has all natural notes CDEFGABC or 12345678 or WWhWWWh (Whole tone half tone) you have the following chords CDEFGABC
Cmajor= 135 CEG (1357 Cmajor 7th)
dminor= 1b35 DFA (1b35b7 dminor7th)
eminor= 1b35 EGB (1b35b7 eminor 7th)
Fmajor= 135 FAC (1357 FACE major 7th)
Gmajor= 135 GBD (135b7 GBDF G dominat 7th or G7)
Aminor = 1b35 ACE (1b35b7 ACEG Aminor 7th)
Bdiminished= 1b3b5 (1b35b7 BDFA Bminor 7th b5 or half diminished--------it would be fully diminshed if it had a double b7 or 1b35bb7 BDFG

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 15 2010 23:46:16
 
rogeliocan

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Rain

quote:

no Bb, 135b7 is the formula C7 is the dominant chord of the F major scale formula for a major scale is 1234567 in the of F major that would spell F G A Bb C D E F or 1234567
so if you start on the C you get C D E F G A Bb C or 123456b78


Thanks Rain.
That I did not know, I thought C7 was built off the C major scale (the exampled used in the site I'm looking at) so since they were showing the 7th was Bb I thought that by default 7th was down one half tone, B to Bb.

I need a good book.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 15 2010 23:51:40
 
chester

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Joined: Oct. 29 2010
 

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to rogeliocan

Wow, quite a bit of posts here. Even I'm getting confused, and I thought I knew this stuff.

@rogeliocan
quote:

the m applies to the A or to the 7 or both?


The A. Am[some more numbers and letters here] means that the triad is minor.

quote:

Why not just right Adim7?


The difference between Adim7 and Am7b5 is in the 7. In dim7 it's a
diminished 7 (ie Gb) and in m7b5 it's a minor (also natural) 7 (ie G).

@ProminentCritic
quote:

Am9Augb5Dim#13SusAdd4

What???

@Rain
quote:

Free Palestine

What???
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 15 2010 23:52:00
 
Rain

Posts: 475
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RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to chester

quote:

What???


Exactly what it says Free Palestine.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2010 0:00:58
 
rogeliocan

Posts: 811
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From: Canada

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to yourwhathurts69

That's great Yourwhathurs69.
What you said is what I thought, and so I ask again and please correct where I am wrong.

on the Am7b5, following your roadmap,
Am7 is A minor with the 7th
b5 is a flat 5th so now we have a triad with a minor 3d and a flat 5th, isn't that a diminished chord: Adim and then again, add the same 7th.
So... why not just right Adim7... from your roadmap, I know the answer (I think), because dim7 means fully diminshed.

So Am7b5 is the same as Adim7 except for the 7th which is a half tone down in the Adim7, in other words, Am7b5 is half-diminished, Adim7 is fully-diminished.

Wow, I think I got it. Thanks for the roadmap.

My final comment is it would simpler if you could just tell what the chord is by looking at the name, without having to know the rules that go with it. But there must be a reason, I don't have enough knowledge to judge.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2010 0:06:31
 
rogeliocan

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to chester

quote:

The difference between Adim7 and Am7b5 is in the 7. In dim7 it's a
diminished 7 (ie Gb) and in m7b5 it's a minor (also natural) 7 (ie G).


Yes I got it now.

minor... also natural... also nothing at all (just 7)... so many ways of writing the same thing!!!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2010 0:08:32
 
Rain

Posts: 475
Joined: Jul. 7 2005
 

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to rogeliocan

The idiots guide is a good book to start with.
As well you can start now by learning the basic C major scale all over the neck and the following formula for it WWhWWWh if you know that formula you can find all the major scales on the fret board W stands for whole step meaning the first note fretted on the guitar in this case C on the second b string first fret then skipping a fret and fretting the third fret which would be the D on 3rd fret so C to D is a whole step(you have skipped the C3) then another Whole step the E(3rd of scale) on 5 fret followed by a half step the F on the 6fret and so on till you get to the c C on the 13fret of the Bstring

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2010 0:08:46
 
Chiste de Gales

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RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to JasonMcGuire

quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonMcGuire

A minor 7th flat 5, AKA A "half-diminished"

A,C,Eb,G


Totally correct sir.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2010 0:09:25
 
yourwhathurts69

 

Posts: 120
Joined: Sep. 16 2009
 

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Rain

hey, rogeliocan

you're almost there

Remember that in general, a flat 7th interval (which is based off of the major key) is used in 7th chords.

so, in your example of Am7, the major key of A has the notes (A B C# D E F# G# A)
and if you "flat" the 7th note, you lower G# a half step to G.

and because your chord has "m" before the 7th, it is based off of a minor triad (A C E).

so Am7 has the minor triad (A C E) and the flat 7th (G) = A C E G



and like you said, although Am7b5 has a diminished triad ( A C Eb), the 7th is only a flat 7 (G) so it is only "half diminished"

to be full dimished, it needs the diminished triad (A C Eb) and "diminished 7th" interval, which flats the "flat 7" (ie G --> Gb)

so Adim7 is A C Eb Gb



and, unlike the half diminished, each note in a fully diminished 7th chord has an interval of a minor third (A to C, C to Eb, Eb to Gb)

if this all makes sense, let me know, and i'll tell you another quick piece of info about diminished chords.

also, the reason there are so many ways to write the same chord is because it's a short hand version of writing the whole chord name. with any short hand way of writing, there are usually a few ways to write it.

so, instead of writing 'A diminished 7th flat 5', you just put 'Am7b5'

it keeps things a little less messy and it's much faster when you're reading chords.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2010 0:36:20
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2010 0:39:01
 
rogeliocan

Posts: 811
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From: Canada

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to yourwhathurts69

Thanks again Yourwhathurts69,

That is very clear and I understand. I still think that Adim7, without theory is not intuitive, but I understand that the end result is short names and for that you need a set of standards in the background.

I must congratulate you on how clear your explanations are. Any books you recommend, targeted to guitar players?

Just like flamenco is actually, the theory is a bit overwhelming, it is great to know that the chord names are based on the major chords, that simplify things a lot (that is correct right?)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2010 0:44:14
Guest

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Guest

thinking about this diminshed chords have varying functions
most commonly as a static sound ie diminished or functioning as a dominant b9 chord to a tonic...
as a chord it would have a major seventh
if functioning as a dominant the sequence of notes change
so
diminished = whole step half step
as dominant= half step whole step...

phew
guess theres many takes on the diminished sound

looking at it from a diatonic view using 7ths ie using the locrian mode in major key it is a half diminished chord
from a harmonic minor super locrian it would be a 6th without a 7th...

so at least three takes on the diminished chord

this is getting heady how about back to major/minor chords...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2010 0:53:05
 
chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010
 

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Rain

@Rain--

quote:

Exactly what it says Free Palestine


I don't want to hijack the thread, but are you a Palestinian?

I'd love to start a new thread in the 'off topic' section and hear your views on the Palestine/Israel issue (if that's ok with you).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2010 0:56:00
 
yourwhathurts69

 

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RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Guest

hey, AlVal

i think you're a bit confused.

in 7th chords, there are no 6th scale degrees - you must build up the chords using 3rd intervals (whether they are major 3rds, minor 3rds, diminished 3rds, or augmented 3rds - either way, 7th chords are always made with 3rd intervals).

however, in diminished scales, there is always a weird note that you must use the enharmonic spelling to make the scale work. so, when you're thinking the 6th, it is actually the 7th note flatted twice.

so, in an A diminished scale, you have the notes (A) B (C) D (Eb) F (Gb) Ab A

notice the whole step half step relation between each note (WHWHWHWH)

also notice that some of those notes could have different note names but still sound the same. for example, you could also write this: (A) B (C) D (Eb) F (Gb) G# A
either way, you still have the diminished triad which is build off of minor thirds: A to C, C to Eb, Eb to Gb

the interval between each note must be a minor third. yes, i understand the Gb may "sound" the same as F#, but in music theory, it is not the same "note"
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2010 1:01:42
 
yourwhathurts69

 

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RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to rogeliocan

hey, rogeliocan

send me an email through the forum and i'll get you some good info.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2010 1:05:07
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2010 1:13:21
 
Rain

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RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to chester

quote:

I'd love to start a new thread in the 'off topic' section and hear your views on the Palestine/Israel issue (if that's ok with you).


No I'm not Palestinian nor does one need to be to understand the suffering of the Palestinian people, one Just needs to understand as to why and more importantly HOW the fabricated state of Israel came to existence.

I'm here to discuss the art of Flamenco, not to discuss politics, but thank you for asking.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2010 1:17:15
 
JasonMcGuire

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RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Rain

It really makes me happy to see this discussion on chord nomenclature taking place. This foro rocks. Keep it up guys.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2010 1:21:19
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2010 1:40:43
 
yourwhathurts69

 

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RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Guest

hey, Alval

the F# your thinking of is actually a Gb. although the two notes "sound" the same, they are different notes. and when it comes to theory, there is an important distinction between notes and sounds.

in the key of A major, any type of G is considered a 7th. the important part is to determine what kind of seventh. in A major, the notes are: A B C# D E F# G# A

using a numbers formula, we have:
maj7 = 1357, so Amaj7 is A C# E G#
7 = 135b7, so A7 is A C# E G (because the 7th is "flatted" from G# to G natural)
min7= 1b35b7, so Amin7 is A C E G (C# goes to C, and G# goes to G)
min7b5= 1b3b5b7, so Amin7b5 is A C Eb G (C# to C, E to Eb, G# to G)
dim7= 1b3b5bb7, so Adim7 is A C Eb Gb (C# to C, E to Eb, and G# to G to Gb)

notice that the chords are always made with 1,3,5,and 7 in some form or another.

so in the dim7 chord, you must have Gb and NOT F# because Gb is still based on the 7th scale degree. because it is flatted twice, it is now a diminished 7th interval instead of a minor 7th interval.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2010 1:44:00
 
yourwhathurts69

 

Posts: 120
Joined: Sep. 16 2009
 

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Guest

AlVal,

i see your video. yes, what you are playing is a diminished chord, but it is not an Adim7 chord if you're calling the Gb an F#.

in theory, 7th chords are built with 3rds. F# will not fit in the patter of 1b3b5bb7 based off of the key of A major.


however, it will fit for F#dim7. in this key you have F# A C Eb. yes, F#dim7 and Adim7 may sound exactly the same, but they are different chords because they are built off of different scales.

if we use the number formula (1b3b5bb7) in the key of F# major (F# G# A# B C# D# E# F#), we have:
1 = F#
b3 = A (A# to A)
b5 = C (C# to C)
bb7 = Eb (E# to E to Eb)

I know it seems like semantics, but the distinction between 'sounds' and 'notes' is very important in music theory. I hope this helps clear things up instead of making things more confusing
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2010 2:01:52
 
Ramon Amira

 

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From: New York City

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Rain

quote:

why and more importantly HOW the FABRICATED state of Israel came to existence. (My caps on the word "fabricated" to illustrate the writer's use of language to express a political opinion - Prominent Critic)


This is a flamenco forum. Gratuitous political editorial comments and opinions should be confined to the "Off Topic" section where they belong.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2010 2:18:58
 
Joven35

 

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RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to yourwhathurts69

WOW!

You just made theory teachers around the world smile (me). I applaud you.

You and I need to talk.

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His amazing technique is one that never loses touch with the spiritual improvisation and direct communication style of flamenco and which does not make virtuosity a goal in itself, but communicates deep sublime emotional qualities. - Manolo Sanlucar
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2010 2:20:45
 
Rain

Posts: 475
Joined: Jul. 7 2005
 

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Ramon Amira

quote:

I'm here to discuss the art of Flamenco, not to discuss politics, but thank you for asking.


Agreed Prominent critic, sorry if I hurt your feelings, I do apologize, but there was no need for your post now was there?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2010 2:30:44
 
Ramon Amira

 

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From: New York City

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Rain

quote:

Agreed Prominent critic, sorry if I hurt your feelings, I do apologize, but there was no need for your post now was there?


Actually I never said or implied that you hurt my feelings. As a writer I am a student of language, and as I said, your post was an editorial comment gratuitously slipped into a thread on music theory. So yes, my post was necessary, and I would have made the same post whatever your political views might have been.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2010 2:41:34
Guest

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to yourwhathurts69

thanks
two views of the same thing i guess...
A dim scale A B C D D#[Eb] F F# [Gb] G#[Ab] A
F# dim Scale F# [Gb] G# [Ab] A B C D D# [Eb] F F# [Gb]
Same notes yes?


understand your point as your relating it to one diatonic scale Amajor
still if you diminished all the chordal intervals of the A major ie 3rd 5th and 7th you can still get four diminished chords A C D# [Eb] and F# [Gb] diminished...same notes yes?
Same applies to F# major as you pinted out so i.m not getting the bit where this is wrong or confusing...to me we are saying much the same thing
they ARE inversions of each other how they function is what really matters.

If F# or Gb is a diminished dominant seventh what shall we call the G#?

your example gives us the same notes regardless of key all a minor 3rd apart

guess your taking a classical view of things and i'm taking more the American Jazz system...
Apologies for any confusion..just often see a Adim7 notated/voiced as A F# [Gb] C F and G#..
Way cool chord but relates more to diminished Harmony than Diatonic and probably beyond the scope of this thread and the original question...yep guess i'm making it more complicated...oops

Cheers and thanks for the insight

Will remove my previous posts for future readers of this thread...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2010 3:05:46
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