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RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco?
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Pimientito
Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella
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 RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to Florian)
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quote:
I got no problem with saying that going to Spain is very VERY important and beneficial but i got a problem with saying that what i do is not authentic flamenco.....especially since if we going to get down to it my culture and where i was born and grew up and how we are and think and our mannerisms, language and our history is way more similar than yours to the Spanish culture..weather you reside or visit there or not...the same way that i assume your mannerism, attitude, way of thinking and body language, understanding of certain traditions is closer to an Australian as a person coming from and English background then mine coming from a Romanian background...yet i now live here
Hi Flo - 2 points really, firstly, I was not trying to say that you don't play authentic flamenco...I was more trying to point out you need to understand not only the musical theory but also some of the cultural background of Andalucia and the gypsies who play. That is difficult to do unless you are lucky enough to surround yourself with Spanish flamencos in your spare time. I completely agree with you about my cultural background, I couldnt be further removed culturally from a Spanish Gitano but I dont think that its just about blood. As you say its up to the individual. The environment rubs off on you and you cant help but pick things up by exposure. Regardless of your Romanian background as being closer to Gitano than mine, I would argue that the "Roma" and "Caló" do have cultural differences. Your Romanian roots have more in common to The Django Reinhardt style of playing so by your reasoning you should be great at that too.
For example if I said that even though I have never been to Australia I understood the Australian outback because I had seen "Crocodile Dundee" and I met Rolf Harris once, then you would be quite right to laugh at me. However if spent a lot of time with Aboriginals outside of Australia (somehow) understood some of the language, legends, rituals, food etc and really studied the subject then I think I would have a different perspective. I still dont think that unless I lived for many years as an aboriginal in the outback that I would be an expert on the subject.
If you cant spend time in Andalucia then you have to be lucky enough to meet pockets of Spanish/gitano communities in order to gain some cultural insights. If that is the case then you immersing yourself in flamenco culture.
The other thing you should remember is that when I first came to Spain, there was no youtube, no facebook, no foroflamenco, no online music libraries, no online music lessons etc. The were very few books on the subject, I had to go to London to buy recordings and the only way to get transcriptions was by writing personally to Alain Faucher. The only way to gain any cultural perspective on flamenco gypsies living in Spain was to visit or live in Spain. That is why I felt this was the best way to understand the culture when I wrote my comment. The internet has changed everything and anyone in the world can immerse themselves culturally in flamenco in a way that was impossible 10 years ago which can help give you an authenticity that would not have been possible previously.
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Date Nov. 1 2010 12:11:24
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gj Michelob
Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco
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RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to Pimientito)
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quote:
The other thing you should remember is that when I first came to Spain, there was no youtube, no facebook, no foroflamenco, no online music libraries, no online music lessons etc. The were very few books on the subject, I had to go to London to buy recordings and the only way to get transcriptions was by writing personally to Alain Faucher.
Not so long ago, was’ it? Yet I felt a chill of genuine fear as you described the dark ages of communication.
YouTube and the Internet (including interacting on music blogs, such as this) has undoubtedly re-ignited my then fading passion for guitar. I do not think I would have ever experienced any particular interest for Flamenco without these tools.
After 25 years in the US I finally watched and enjoyed baseball for first time, last week as our SF Giants hosted the Texas Rangers for the world series. I have not missed a game since (3-1 Giants) nor a pitch…
Unlike many games and sports which have contagiously spread throughout the world, baseball has remained rather domestic (with a few interesting exceptions –Japan and Cuba). As much as one could be athletically inclined, baseball need be practiced on the street, learned through subway rides with your dad to the Yankee stadium, and with your school mates to the park to play “ball”.
I agree, to truly appreciate a language or any deeply ethnic cultural phenomenon, as Flamenco is, one should really immerse in its culture and “live” it and with it. Until then, this Foro and YouTube will provide an inadequate yet stimulating surrogate.
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gj Michelob
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Date Nov. 1 2010 12:46:33
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gbv1158
Posts: 410
Joined: May 29 2009
From: Italy
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RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to gj Michelob)
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quote:
I agree, to truly appreciate a language or any deeply ethnic cultural phenomenon, as Flamenco is, one should really immerse in its culture and “live” it and with it.
Since flamenco is a form of “experience of life” of a social group, it’s vehicle to be understood and used again and again is it’s “structural form” as a “language”. As all the “experiences of life” have “us” as actors no matter where we are in time and space, it will happen that we will use a “language” to express ourselves.
So, as long we need “to talk each other” or “to ourselves” with deep meanings about some kind of “experience of life” than we have to use the appropriate language, directly, clearly expressive.
Now, all the specific languages can be learned and transmitted as a “world” of significations.
So if our life will go through one, some or all of those “ significations”, then we may “talk” with the words of that language.
One clear example : the Italian word MAESTRO ; this word comes from greek, sanskrito and after from latin, which means has more than 2000 years of signification, now I do not believe that a non Italian person can’t use the same word to mean the same thing.
This is the strength of the language as form of the “exteriority” of life. now, what is the ART if not a form of language ? and as a language it is structurally made with “signs”.
Flamenco is a “language” with it’s own “signs”, they can be understood and used by every body, it is a matter of sensibility.
I don’t know if what a wrote makes sense! :-)
ciao
Giambattista
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Date Nov. 1 2010 14:59:05
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Bulerias2005
Posts: 632
Joined: Jul. 10 2010
From: Minneapolis, MN
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RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to JasonMcGuire)
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I have an interesting relationship with cante flamenco. On the most basic level, I respect it and enjoy its intricacies. On a musical level, it is not the most intellectually stimulating genre. What I learned over the years, however, is that it's not supposed to be. As musicians -- guitarists -- we're naturally drawn to that which has 6 strings. But cante is the embodiment of that intangible flamenco essence, something that goes far beyond the music. Personally, I cannot relate to some aspects of that essence -- perhaps it is a cultural divide, or maybe a simple language barrier.
In any case, when it comes down to my enjoyment of cante, yes, I enjoy it in limited doses. Would I listen to traditional cante for fun, hours on end? No... I admittedly enjoy more modern stuff (albeit still rooted in the tradition).
But recorded cante isn't able to transmute that intangible essence very well. Hell, NO recorded music captures the raw emotion of a live performance. I was lucky enough to see Jason McGuire and Pedro Cortes accompany singer Oscar Valero in a restaurant after their show in Minneapolis. It was the first time I was so close to living, breathing cante. And I have to say is, I've looked at it differently ever since. My advice to the OP is this -- try to find opportunities where you can surround yourself with live flamenco. Particularly cante. Trust me, your opinion will change...
-Daniel
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Date Nov. 1 2010 15:09:13
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