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RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco?
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Anders Eliasson
Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
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 RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to Richard Ogilby)
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Back on OT and my first post on this subject:
I listen a lot to flamenco in my workshop. 99% of what I listen to is Cante. Solo CD´s I find to be boring. To many notes. To me flamenco is Cante. Thats the center of the art.
When I play, I do a lot of solo stuff. But its mainly to play better. I should work more with Cante CD´s, but I find it to be very tiring to play along with CD´s. I go to town once or twice a week to play with singers. Its really hard work, but I like it. Its all about listening and having lots of pacience. You´ve got to be able to follow the singers intensions at the same speed as the singer does. If not, you wont be able to accompany well. Its not enough to just put in an Am or whatever, because someone has told you that you have to. This is not like playing the Beatles, Bob Dylan or whatever.
Often when I accompany, I concentrate so much that that my playing falls apart. I forget my falsetas and I´m not even capable of playing a simple Juan Martín falseta. I´ve asked other players about that and they say its normal. You focus so much in the singer, that your own playing is second to that. I have to work on that.
When I build guitars, my intention is to make a guitar that works for ALL kinds of flamenco. I dont believe at all in the babble that some constructors say, that their guitar are "concert guitars" Thats totally bla bla in my ears. A guitar that doesnt work with cante is NOT a good flamenco guitar.
I take a lot of my guitars to my local Peña. I let the local players try them and I ask the opinion of the singers. I learn a lot from that. And the line is very clear. They all want a guitar which is percussive and with a clear definition and separation of the notes. They DONT want a very trebly and bright guitar. It must have some body in the sound. The trebly guitars get lost in the noise from the surroundings, palmas, etc. They all like volume but they dont like noisy guitars and players.
It took me years to learn to appreciate cante, but now there´s no way back. The day I stop listening to cante, I stop listening to flamenco.
_____________________________
Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Nov. 8 2010 8:10:49
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tonos
Posts: 23
Joined: Sep. 2 2009
From: The Hague
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RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to gj Michelob)
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Dear GJ
Your kind and civil contributions to this forum never fail to delight me. Thank you.
Dear Apak,
Flamenco has never been pure, although people have always tried to make it so. And if all great musicians say that flamenco defies limitations, then it defies precepts as well. No one should love anything about flamenco. So if the wailing of the cante doesn't give you duende but rather the opposite then you should either not listen to it, or ignore it.
It took me years to learn to love cante. I remember working on some drawing while the soundtrack from the movie Vengo was playing, when I was suddenly struck by the raw beauty of the Chant du Bapteme. When it was over I repeated it, and again, and again, because I couldn't get enough of it.
And I remember crying for the first time listening to "En el Grec".
Given time, you may learn to love cante, or some cantaores, or you may not. You will never have to, only the poor purists do.
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Date Nov. 10 2010 19:45:07
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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I should had read the whole thread first in order to not beat dead horses, but the thread is too long while I can´t wait to rid myself of a topic so interesting to me, yet so rarely seen discussed.
First of all, hat off to the original poster for being so brave and straight forward!
Oriental and all in all Asian music with some exceptions, to my experience especially with some of Indian music and Jewish ( Klezmer ), is a not too rich musical field to start with.
In detail the Indian sitar as an instrument can be quite colorful; next some of the Arabian music like of Libanese and Maroccan can be nicely rhythmic; and Klezmer music to me after flamenco and Irish folk comes in as the most diverse and colourful folk music internationally, with rich melodies of African chorusses as fourth in line.
But aside of the exceptions within Asian music, what will be found being a melodical wise rather anemic and beat wise over-crowded sound production with commonly very limited musical means. With those engaged overly in place at that.
For oriental style that will specifically be tremolo. Tremolo from start to end, especially with the vocals.
Hence, something in systematically and harmocally structured music only used in place, in oriental music will be used throughout. And while it being of the oldest genres around, hardly any further development has occured in thousands of years. Still those same simplicistc structures of ancient times.
No Oriental Beethovens or Chopins around who would had ever freshed-up and expanded the melodic repertoir.
What popular Persian music is concerned no own developmet has happened in New Age, other than first copying and implementing elemtens of French chansons, later on structures of western Seventies charts and since a while now imitating out of all rap music, mostly tracked by Persian hipsters around Los Angeles.
What means with melodies of original character is concerned, however merely instrumental arrangements have changed to a degree. With first of all introduction of drums and synthesizers and secondly the Spanish guitar. ( Iranians love the Spanish guitar since they - like the rest of the world - discovered it around 40 years ago and there exists a number of Iranian musicians who play it pretty well.) The use of these instruments simultaneously contributed to a bit more variety in terms of accent of rhythm and melody, but the anemia especially in the way of singing remained. ( Except of the rap fraction, where the staccato simply won´t allow ever stretched tremolo.)
And the singing after all is the predominat factor with that music. For the average Oriental and specially Iranian because of the religious tradition of abdication being rather unmusical, gaining only little joy of actual music and listening much rather for lyrics than for musicality.
Thus no surprise how oriental singing often times being of not much more finesse than monotonous muezzin cacophony.
Interesting besides, how popular muezzins ( who tour the islamic wolrd highly paid like rock stars ) seem to have sensed the monotony themselves and started sculpturing their singing after melodic sections from good old western hits. - While the uncapable just drawning their calls in reverb fx. Really weird to recognize patterns of Pink Floyd, M.M.E.A., John Denver etc. in those cries over the roofs of oriental cities.
The simplicity of that kind of music leaves its traces in the differenciating ability of the people who grew up with it. All used to that slim musical niche they cannot feel the beauty outside of it. Yet, while auditioning the most pulling, rocking and singing pieces the world has originated someone grown up exclusicevely with his local Asian style won´t be moved by that "strange sound" at all. Some even explained to me that it would be sounding "out of tune" to their ears.
Like say The Beatles or Simon & Garfunkel being out of tune, you know.
- A phenomenon somewhat like with techno and hiphop kids after all.
Anyway, I think to completely understand what the original poster of this thread feels.
That cante at time fits very well, being much more attractive than the vocals it once derived from; but I wouldn´t sit down to listen to exclusive cantes over a longer while. And while it is understood that the flamenco guitar developed as accompany to it, the latter definitly being the much more musical and manifold element of it.
The funny thing is how it has been Oriental ( Arabian and Indian ) music that merged with European one to in the end comprise the most colourful and vivid folk music ever.
Which is why I feel sorry for how Oriental music stagnated and never advanced. Without a doctrin that reviled all things zest for life like singing & dancing, you bet that there would be some complex and diverse Eastern music in place today.
Ruphus
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Date Nov. 20 2010 12:18:37
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