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RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco?   You are logged in as Guest
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apak

 

Posts: 57
Joined: May 23 2010
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to apak) 
Thanks for your thoughts everyone. I enjoyed reading your takes on this, and now I know a bit more about the spectrum of opinions on this.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 6:00:33
 
CarloJuan

 

Posts: 169
Joined: Sep. 19 2010
From: Philippines

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to JasonMcGuire) 
lol...Hi Jason! it seems to have been a long time since your last dropped by...

You're on a posting, replying spree.. :)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 6:23:50
 
CarloJuan

 

Posts: 169
Joined: Sep. 19 2010
From: Philippines

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to apak) 
I'm glad my ear got a quick grasp of cante's inexplicable charm on my soul. Cante is King, Cante is King, Cante is King!!!!!!

Although i have my own personal preferences of cantaors, i generally love cante. It's "flamenco puro" the very essence of flamenco.

Hmmm. come to think of it, which came first? the chicken or the egg?

Cante or Compas?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 6:28:54
 
tantrum

 

Posts: 31
Joined: Nov. 4 2009
From: Switzerland

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to apak) 
OK, I'll admit I'm still in the pre-liking-cante stage. My guitar teacher is a good singer, with quite a mellow voice, and in my last lesson we tried accompanying for the first time. This is fun, but I still don't like listening to (most) recordings of it. But I have no claim of - or aspiration to - being real flamenco.

I actually really like various styles of singing in Arabic - from Morocco to Egypt and beyond. I even like that recitation of the Qu'ran apak posted. I don't really see the similarity to cante - I wish there was more!

And I'm not generally averse to harsh singing styles as my main musical love is technical death metal, where they sing like barking dogs and I find that perfectly good!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 8:00:52
 
Mike_Kinny

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 8:49:30
 
Argaith

Posts: 481
Joined: May 6 2009
From: Iran (living in London)

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to apak) 
quote:

have played classical Persian music


Mike_Kinny: No wonder you find some Flamenco singers out of tune! I used to think like you until I realised that although Iranian traditional music is very much comparable to Flamenco (Dastgah, Mayeh, Goosheh, etc), Flamenco is a total different kettle of fish!

apak: Like a lot of other folks here, I couldn’t cope with the cante in the beginning, but it gradually grew on me. There are days that nothing can get me going better than a Bulerias song by Paquera or a Fandago by Pepe Nunez.

P.S: In addition to laziness, one thing that discourages me to learn Spanish is the thought of being disappointed by the meaning of the lyrics!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 10:45:09
 
Gummy

Posts: 495
Joined: Nov. 27 2005
From: North Carolina, USA

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to apak) 
I too sometimes have a hard time with cante but really enjoy some singers. One guy I feel is easy to listen to is Fosforito. I don't know what is different about his voice or what other forum readers think about him.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 12:12:13
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to JasonMcGuire) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonMcGuire
Flamenco is all about the cante. You are insulting the very reason why guitars ever played in the flamenco style. ...Eventually you will realize that Cante and Guitar are things that can't be separated and that you can't really understand an art form as tied to its singing as flamenco without intense study of cante.


Wrong. The guitar does not exist in flamenco, since all is about cante.

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Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 12:31:36
 
Mike_Kinny

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 13:10:39
 
KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to Mike_Kinny) 
quote:

To my ears most flamenco singers sing frequently out of tune.


I hear you mike, There is some shocking stuff out there. Out of tune, irritatingly overdone, cheesy, and a heap of songs that sound lame in general IMO. Even by people that are respected and supposed to be the best?? It all comes down to individual taste i guess.

I also find it annoying/patronising when people throw in words like, Jondo, Gitano, Puro or Duende trying to convince me of music that is without a doubt not my thing. Or use these words to try and erect barriers to hinder a foreign guitarists progress, or worst of all, attempt to make someone believe that their expression is of lesser value based on their knowledge of cante.

I like the expression involved in the cante and as i said earlier, i enjoy and appreciate the interaction when it's live. Especially if they sing in a way that i like.

The intention of the singer or guitarist and the motivation behind it is something that often sways me one way or the other. I appreciate genuine expression even if it is a little out of tune.

The special moments that can be evoked and captured within cante are unique and i appreciate that. There are also some good lyrics but I am not convinced that they are any better than lyrics contained in any other form of music.

I encourage others to express themselves in any way they want. If cante flamenco is your favorite, i support,respect and understand that. There is potentially a lot of cool stuff that can be done with it.

I agree with your statement about not having it forced upon you though. I have found some Cante Flamenco that i really enjoy in amongst all the cante i have listened to over 30 years. I go with my gut and take from the sounds that i can relate to.

My enjoyment of music is not based on the goal of being "EL DUENDE"," Flamenco Authentico Gitano Puro Master" I just enjoy playing and trying to express myself as best as i can.

If people like what i come up with and relate to it then thats great. If people listen to it and their response is, can you accompany the cante because i am waiting to know this before i decide if i like it or not? then the music was meaningless anyway.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 13:35:31
 
Mike_Kinny

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 14:57:21
 
edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to apak) 
My appreciation and love for flamenco originated in the Middle East:
I spent four to five years of my early teens in Kuwait, The Libanon and Saudi Arabia (first half of the sixties) and was mesmerized by the singing and the 'oud (I even started liking the Muezzin's call). Which all goes to say that likes and dislikes have many roots.

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El aficionado solitario
Alemania
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 16:54:34
 
JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to tantrum) 
quote:

But I have no claim of - or aspiration to - being real flamenco.


Fakemenco™ ????



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Attachment (1)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 17:36:42
 
JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to Mike_Kinny) 
quote:

To my ears most flamenco singers sing frequently out of tune.


The guitars are always out of tune too. It makes the guitar sound more like its crying.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 17:38:39
 
Mike_Kinny

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 17:41:24
 
JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to XXX) 
quote:

Wrong. The guitar does not exist in flamenco, since all is about cante.


No, no, no.... the guitar is ALL IMPORTANT. Nothing should obscure the beauty of a guitar. No cajons, percussion, bass, English Horn, flutes of any sort and by all means not the caterwauling of some gypsy upset about what reality has delivered on his doorstep.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 17:46:39
 
JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to Mike_Kinny) 
quote:

Exactly! That's why I can't stand guitar duos.


My God! we are a touchy bunch aren't we?

People who don't like cante remind me of Satanists..... Christians who hate Christ.

Seriously.... do what you like people. Cante is an important part of flamenco. If a person wants to get to the heart of flamenco, the only path is cante. You can play it safe though staying on the outskirts with solo guitar.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 17:56:56
Guest

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 18:23:16
 
JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to Guest) 
Cante = HeavyMenco™

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 18:26:18
Guest

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 18:29:34
 
JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to Guest) 
quote:

Does Solo guitar = Flamencurbacion.


just make sure to clean up afterwards

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 18:31:04
 
elroby

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 19:30:53
 
JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to elroby) 
quote:

I thought this was a foro flamenco,


You can't have a flamenco show without guitar. You CAN have a flamenco show with ONLY a guitar. Therefore..... Flamenco IS guitar. Cante is annoying and hurts regular people's ears. The Foro Flamenco is for keeping things light..... So...... lighten it up Roby. Please.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 19:38:56
 
JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to JasonMcGuire) 


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http://www.Flamenco-Lessons.com/
http://www.CaminosFlamencos.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/Bikhiyal
http://flamenco-lessons.blogspot.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 19:41:16
 
mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to JasonMcGuire) 
quote:

The Foro Flamenco is for keeping things light..... So......

OK now i understand why the requests for an dedicated section in accompaniment here have been neglected

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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 20:01:47
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to apak) 
interesting thread.
Now is cante...
"all what flamenco is about"?
"a part of flamenco" (among others i assume)?
"influenced by guitar, and guitar is influenced by cante"?

have fun answering this without contradictions
and without butt licking flamenco peers please.

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Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 20:19:58
 
Mike_Kinny

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 20:52:36
 
Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to apak) 
I bear a horrible resemblance to the guitarist in the mirador
Well I can definately say that I didnt appreciate Flamenco cante when I first started listening to flamenco and I guess that was mainly due to lack of understanding.
I was initially attracted to the guitar playing and later learned how the guitar relates to the cante. It would be fair to assume that most "non spanish " afficionados found the guitar easier on the ear initially than the cante.

Firstly I would say that learning about how the cante works is essential if you want to really play authentic flamenco. The root of the music is in the song. I think the reason why its hard to understand at first (and I have spent enough time in Spain to be qualified to say this) is for one simple reason
BAD CANTE IS REALLY REALLY BAD NOISE!!! A drunk gypsy wailing away does not express anything other than how dreadful the human voice really can sound. Just as there are great differences between maestros and guitarists who bang out dissonant chords on a five string Chinese guitar and call it Arte, there are an incredible amount of singers in any town who think that because they dont go to bed til 6.00 in the morning, they are flamenco artists. I only started to like cante when I heard really good singers and then it becomes very clear what the art is all about.

Here is my point - Lots of people can sing, not many are artists.

Camaron changed my whole view of cante and from there I started seeing why guys like Miguel Poveda are so good. My advise is to only listen to the very best for a while and get used to the vocal style and the song structure. It then becomes easier to understand what lesser singers are trying to do.

Lastly ( and only because i feel argumentative), I think you can still be a very good player without necessarily being able to accompany every singer in every palo. Ok it might not make you able to hang out in a cave in darkest Andalucia at 4 in the morning accompanying the local singers like a native BUT it doesnt mean you cant play well and use your own cultural background to come up with musical ideas in a flamenco context. If flamenco guitar is simply about deep understanding and love of following cante, then can someone please explain what Vicente Amigos last so called flamenco album was all about because I failed to see the cante root in any of it

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 20:58:19
 
Mike_Kinny

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 21:11:14
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to Mike_Kinny) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike_Kinny
Good questions for a flamencologist but what flamenco is or isn't, is of no concern to me (an aficionado)


No i was asking what cante is, not flamenco and i agree that a definition of flamenco would be "useless" coz it doesnt say anything about whether it fits ones tastes.
So far all posts avoided a clear answer on this and just strangled into more and more contradictions. I guess thats necessary when thinking flamenco is "all about cante" while not being the cantaor etc etc etc

I can sum it up in one sentence: if you think that guitar adds anything of artistic value to flamenco, then you have to accept the fact that people may like guitar while disliking cante (i dont). If you think the guitar is of no importance, then you have to live with the fact that your artistic value is irrelevant, if you share the luck to be a guitarrist. Solo or accomp i leave that to your choice

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Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 21:37:01
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